There has been some recent discussion about Abigail's gender (a topic not ultimately worth a nanofortnight's attention), which led to the topic of the dirth of female programmers. In particular, sierrathedog64, said that "something not very good for women is going on", which got me to thinking. What is this "not very good thing"? There isn't some programmer boys' club, standing firmly on a glass ceiling, and if there is, I haven't seen it. As a matter of fact, one manager I spoke to (who sincerely regretted accepting his promotion) said he'd hire a woman over a man with the same credentials, because they tend to outperform.
Why, then, are there so few female programmers? Well, I've spoken to a few women about it, and all but one (who is a programmer herself) find the idea of spending the required amount of time in front of a computer extremely distasteful, generally citing preferable activities. So programming is simply not an attractive activity to women (in general). In fact, the female mind is apparently predisposed away from programming because of its tendency to multitask rather than superfocus, among other things (I'm being very vague because I don't remember where I read about this, nor exactly what it said).
So is this bad? I don't really see why, since it isn't a survival-of-the-species matter, and there isn't a conscious anti-woman effort. Programmers will be programmers, male or female, as long as there are contraptions to play with.
~Cybercosis
nemo accipere quod non merere
|
---|
Replies are listed 'Best First'. | |
---|---|
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by Abigail (Deacon) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:07 UTC | |
I know the arguments why there are less women in computer related fields than there are men, and I've no reason to not believe them. They however don't explain the very high men/women ratio in the Perl world. If I remember the number of attendees of this years YAPC::NA right, only 6% of the participants was female. The other day I came across a conference picture of a conference I went to a few years ago. (Workshop on Algorithms and Data Structures). Also in Montreal, also organized at McGill. Far less men per woman there. It doesn't bother me there are more men than women in computer related fields. It does bother me what is showing in the Perl world. Either they are hiding, or just not here. And that must have a cause. We must be doing something wrong. -- Abigail | [reply] |
by tomhukins (Curate) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:26 UTC | |
This in an interesting point, especially when synapse0's comments are taken into consideration. If women are less likely to become programmers because they prefer social, creative roles as opposed to technical, analytical roles, then I would expect that women (in general, of course) would prefer Perl to C. I find Perl much more of a natural, creative language than anything else I've used to program a computer. From what I've read on various Perl communities, I get the impression this is a common feeling. I recall Larry mentioning this is one of his State of the Onion speeches. So, are we all misguided in our belief that Perl is more of a natural language than other programming languages? Or are beliefs that women prefer creative roles over analytical roles wrong? Or is something else going on? | [reply] |
by Abigail (Deacon) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:37 UTC | |
-- Abigail | [reply] |
by shotgunefx (Parson) on Jul 13, 2001 at 21:42 UTC | |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by japhy (Canon) on Jul 13, 2001 at 16:12 UTC | |
Why is it so few? Programming has a rather un-glamorous aura around it; we hear too often of computer geeks with glasses and pocket protectors and no social life who sit in front of three terminals, who engage in mindless trivial holy wars about which editor to use and which flavor of Unix/Linux/etc. is best. (It's not entirely untrue.) We get a bad rap. But those of us that are predisposed, or ignore the rap, get to love the art. (Ooh, how silly, a programmer calling it "art"? Get a life!) japhy -- Perl and Regex Hacker | [reply] |
by virtualsue (Vicar) on Aug 17, 2001 at 01:22 UTC | |
japhy, I don't understand why you are coy about listing kudra as a "female programmer" (ewww*), but you list your girlfriend, whom you say gave up programming at ~18? BTW, that age is in the bracket where I think a lot of women who ever had a bit of interest in the art of programming drop out. I don't know all the reasons for that myself, and it probably bears looking into (and probably is, quite regularly, by social science grad students). I suppose it may quite simply not be a way of life which appeals to many women except those who feel almost compelled to do it (i.e. those who would have to be *stopped* from programming). The rest who studied CS or IT because an advisor told them it's a great career area jump out into sales or marketing at the earliest possible opportunity. If I hadn't laughed I might have been offended by the "females who frequent this site" phrase which followed your personal list of "female programmers" (ewww). davorg's point came to life before my eyes when I read it. I'm into this thread late, because I missed this first time around, but being a "female programmer" (ewww) I felt like commenting anyway. *I know you didn't start it - the phrase appeared in the root node. It's just such a crap phrase. I would vastly prefer being called a "girl", or even "hey there, you with the t*ts". Interestingly, I found this when looking through Abigail's PM oeuvre for something else, which I'll continue looking for now, after taking a few deep breaths. :) | [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by delegatrix (Scribe) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:29 UTC | |
There are a lot of women in IT. Groups like DC WebWomen, San Francisco Women of the Web, DigitalEve, and WebGrrls have large numbers of members. That said, not all of these women are programmers. The growth of the Web has brought in people working various ways with new media. I have known lots of female programmers and I have found them to be less visible in programming communities. There is most certainly a small number of women that actively participate in the perl community. In my experience as a programmer and sys admin, I was often discouraged by the treatment I got from men (of all ages, not just the dinosaurs), who assumed that my technical knowledge lagged behind my male co-workers'. This attitude puts off a lot of women. Carnegie Mellon's Scool of Computer Science has been studying this issue since 1995 and has a number of papers on the subject See their publications for some insight. Here are a few quotes from one: So what can you do to help pull them in so they're not left out of opportunities in high tech.
| [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by davorg (Chancellor) on Jul 13, 2001 at 12:47 UTC | |
I wonder if more women would be tempted into programming if less programmers were misogynists. --<http://www.dave.org.uk> Perl Training in the UK <http://www.iterative-software.com> | [reply] |
by John M. Dlugosz (Monsignor) on Jul 13, 2001 at 19:42 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by coreolyn (Parson) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:18 UTC | |
IMHO this apparent gender gap has less to with why there are so few female programmers than it does with asking why there are so many male programmers. If one looks at the type of men that are in this field the answer is obvious but not one the male ego wants to accept. Examine the social role types in the male programming profession and simply note the types that are missing. How many 'macho' programmers are there? How many mechanically inclined males are there? How many Adonis's? Females who lack these qualities have many socially acceptable options and avenues to control the way they choose to use their personalities and talents than males. Men without the above listed personas can achieve self-esteem, ego, and financial stability in this business, thus it only makes sense that this field is a magnet for males with intellectual talent and are competitively/socially gender challenged. coreolyn - The truth may hurt but never overlook it's empowerment. | [reply] |
by Molt (Chaplain) on Apr 24, 2002 at 14:34 UTC | |
I disagree with this, using the logic you applied that females don't come in computing because it's lacking 'macho males' you'd end up with the argument that males wouldn't come into computing as it's lacking females in general. Also, could you list the extra options females lacking those qualities have with allow them self-esteem, ego, and financial stability? Update: I now realise I did misunderstand a large part of your argument and I'm sorry about that. I'll reply with a more complete post tomorrow. | [reply] |
by coreolyn (Parson) on Apr 24, 2002 at 15:21 UTC | |
I don't quite follow how you extrapolate, you'd end up with the argument that males wouldn't come into computing as it's lacking females in general. Non machismo ridden males, (IMHO) enjoy the opportunity to express and develop their skill while not tied up in such a mono-brain cell environment. Having been a truck driver, a pipeliner, and an oil rigger in my past, I know this is definately true in my expirience. What I was attempting to point out was that women have more options. I guess, more specifically, I was referring to marriage and child rearing as avenues to feeling sucessful and thereby elevating self-esteem. As a male that never had a desire to be the 'provider' and yet has been essentially the sole provider for the last 20 years to a wife and 3 kids, probably a bit of my jealousy/angst underlies the argument, but I don't think that bias overrides the underlying opinion. coreolyn | [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by Malkavian (Friar) on Jul 13, 2001 at 14:22 UTC | |
There seems to be a general bias in the job fields between the genders, with a larger quantity of women seeming to choose jobs in the 'caring professions', such as medical and nursing, communications (linguists), arts business and the more socially interacting disciplines. I've met a few women coders along the way, and those I've met tended to be not really any different to the guys.. Some were awesome coders, some were reasonable. It's definately not a case of aptitute, and (in most cases), it doesn't seem to be a case of a big preference for men in the jobs. From my personal experiences, it's been a case that the women I know have chosen to follow other careers that they feel better suited to them personally. One of my old girlfriends had quite a response to the whole issue, which was that she was happy doing what she chose to do, and would guys feel happy if women constantly needled them that they should consider jobs in nursing, because there were too few men in the field? If women choose to code, for the pure reason they feel like doing it, then good on them. If they don't choose to, for the same reasons, then, who am I to start saying that they should, just because there aren't very many of them in the field? Like you mention, Cybercosis, it seems that a lot of the dearth of female coders is simply down to personal choice. Perhaps in the future, that may change, as subjective perceptions change with the social trends prevalent in the days.. Maybe it's just guys are more antisocial. Anyhow, that's just my take on it. :) Cheers, Malk | [reply] |
by delegatrix (Scribe) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:39 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by Stormr (Beadle) on Jul 13, 2001 at 13:03 UTC | |
It could be bad for the IT (/tech/computer/what you prefer to call it) business if roughly half the population don't even see Computer Science/Programming as a possible career path. This is a very valuable resource that's wasted since if the recruitment base is cut to half, of course the average quality will decrease. Or at least not increase compared to todays situation. Considering the tech business growth , the talent is needed to avoid stagnation. And something that is bad for the business I've chosen to work in (well, in a few years, still has to complete my education), it's potentially bad for me. And that I don't like, so I'd welcome anything that improves the female sex' view of programming as profession. <END RANT> / Stormr, 1 in a class of 150 CS students, roughly 10% females. | [reply] [d/l] [select] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by xphase_work (Pilgrim) on Jul 13, 2001 at 17:24 UTC | |
I think the reason why there are few female programmers is due to ideas thought to be 'true' by society. Much of the US still has problems dealing with girls having 'real' jobs(anything other than housewife or secretary). When most of our society feels a certain way, they influence behaviour such that people act that way. This explains the 'Alpha Geek' thought that most geeks are males with huge egos, this probably isn't a natural(genetic) behaviour trait, but caused by people thinking that's how they should behave. Now I'm friends with many female geeks(not of the programming type), and they exhibit many traits that your average programmer might have. These include the ability to 'superfocus', the ability to stay up all hours working on a project(including the large amounts of caffine), and the ability to find humor in technical jokes. Hmmm.... sounds like many programmers that I know, but are they? No, most of my female geek friends are film geeks. They obsess over the latest indie film, will stay up all night trying to get the perfect shot , will discuss to minute detail the technical details of a film while watching it in the theater, and obsess over hardware. They tell jokes that involve cameras, sound recorders, and developing. Transfer their knowledge of film to computers and what would you get? You'd get your average *NIX geek. So why don't girls like this get into programmin and computers? Because there is "some programmer boys' club." This all relates to my statement above about the 'Alpha Geek' and davorg's comment about misogynists. Many people get into programming when they discover 'Open Source' type programs, or they get into it in college. College comp sci programs have been more popular in recent years because a comp sci can mean a high paying job(not always), so the 'jock' "I want money, but I hate computers" turnout has been higher. These are the same people who feel that certain activites are "guy's" activities, and certain activities are "girl's" activities, and that they should stay seperate. Programming falls under the former catagory as it is something that they can be macho about, therefore they attempt to push girls away from the field. Now we reach the "Alpha Geek", the one who fights holy wars about editors( vi/emacs/pico), GUI's(KDE or GNOME), and licenses(BSD/GPL/LGPL/Closed Source). Now imagine Mr. 1337 linux geek, imagine him being ignored by girls all his life(due to his hobbies including arguing about text editors), now imagine him accepting the fact that girls can program too... Can't see it? Neither can I. Now the above was an extreme case, but many programmers feel that they have to program better than everyone else. It doesn't matter that they write good programs, but that they write better programs, this leads to resentment towards their competition, flame wars and the like ensue. Take a fairly new female programmer getting flamed from all sides about all issues, including being flamed about being female, it takes a special type of person to take that and still program. Now I know that these are all generalizations and probably somewhat on the extreme end as examples go, but they do happen, and they are the ones I have seen first hand. I encourage people to prove me wrong, or show me things that I have interpreted wrong, but as I see it, these things won't change in the near future, and will mean a low number of female programers. Also, it may seem like my train of thought was derailed several times, this is due to, while in the middle of writing this, an emergancy at work. Don't you just love those? --xPhase | [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by Anonymous Monk on Jul 13, 2001 at 20:39 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by synapse0 (Pilgrim) on Jul 13, 2001 at 14:12 UTC | |
morbid eh? -Syn0 (/me wonders if i should have really posted this.. such a touchy subject) Updated: reworded some things :) | [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by da (Friar) on Aug 19, 2001 at 19:20 UTC | |
First, there are a higher fraction of women perl programmers than you'll find in "the perl community." My boss, my officemate, and the other person who reports to my boss are all women perl programmers. They don't live to program, and they have more important things to do than hanging out on perlmonks or going to boston.pm meetings... In monastic terms, for them, programming is an occupation, not a vocation. This bears out one of the things Cybercosis said above, about women finding other preferable activities; and Abigail's comment about women possibly "hiding" in the perl world. I'm not certain this is really a problem. In contrast there are plenty of women programmers, if you look in the right places, such as in biotech (see above comment about my boss, officemate, and co-worker). I would say the number of women who program is going to increase considerably in the next decade as more schools offer CS/biotech degrees. Which is definitely a healthy sign. Second point: It is worth pointing out that "women tend to do X and men tend to do Y" is a simplistic statement which ignores the fact that the range of behaviors within each gender is much greater than the difference between the genders. If you asked 100 people on the street about their behaviors along particular traits that are typically considered "masculine" or "feminine", you'll find that many traits typically described as "masculine" or "feminine" are carried by both men and women. (*) So, I think it's important to say here that the wide range of behaviors among men and women does not biologically predispose women as a whole away from programming, or men toward programming, only inidividuals (of both genders) who happen to be wired in a certain way.
(*)If you're interested in measuring your own "masculine" and "feminine" traits, there's a clever test called the BSRI which compares your responses to 60 questions, some which are typically considered "feminine" or "macsuline" (and some filler questions). (Can't somebody be maculine and feminine? Or neither?)
| [reply] [d/l] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by toma (Vicar) on Jul 13, 2001 at 19:44 UTC | |
The ratios I see out here are much higher than what others have reported in this thread. Typical F/M ratios from what I have seen here are about 1/3 or 1/4, rarely less than 1/8. It should work perfectly the first time! - toma | [reply] |
by bikeNomad (Priest) on Jul 13, 2001 at 19:56 UTC | |
| [reply] |
(ichimunki) Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by ichimunki (Priest) on Jul 13, 2001 at 19:25 UTC | |
update: I have decided to remove my discussion of this issue, which I had included to help justify the existence of my sarcastic comment. | [reply] [d/l] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by Anonymous Monk on Feb 16, 2010 at 13:13 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Female Programmers-WOT
by zentara (Archbishop) on Feb 16, 2010 at 13:31 UTC | |
Now, what I can never figure out is that left or right looking at it from the front, or back. :-) I wonder if the female programmers are better at the Quantuum::Superposition or ESP modules. :-) I also wonder if the endocrine disruptors flooding the environment, are not completely fubar'ing all of us. | [reply] |
A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in. |