in reply to RE: Scalability of the voting system in thread Scalability of the voting system
It only *seems* skewed, because there are two factors which haven't yet reached an upper bound -- the number of regular users of the site, and the number of available votes a good post can receive. As those increase (the second somewhat dependent upon the first), so will the number of points awarded to the best nodes.
It would be nice if voters dug through the archives to find some underappreciated gems (there are a couple of Snippets I'm incredibly proud of, as they're good technical hacks) instead of hitting up the newest ones.
Of course, as the number of votes available to J. Random Regular increases, unless the total number of really good posts (as opposed to mediocre) will have to increase, or he'll vote up posts that are less deserving than before. When you only have five votes per day, and thirty new posts, you'll save your votes for the gems. When you have 25 votes per day and 30 new posts, you can afford to be less discriminating.
Perhaps the act of voting shouldn't grant experience -- and being voted up should grant more.
RE: RE: RE: Scalability of the voting system
by neshura (Chaplain) on May 10, 2000 at 02:02 UTC
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Keep the vote XPs. Don't increase vote #.
by BBQ (Curate) on May 10, 2000 at 08:17 UTC
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Why not do it the other way around? As chromatic put it, when you have only 5 votes you treat each of them as if they were gems. Then why not keep them that way? People should be excited to be able to vote in the 1st place. Not only because it gives you XPs, but because its a priviledge. I've noticed that since I made monk, I've increased my XPs A LOT just by the mere voting quantity factor, and sincerely, I think each one of my votes actually is worth less now.
To be able to do a "trusty vote" does it really matter how much XPs you have? Bottom line, I say keep the voting XPs but don't increase the number of votes as you "grow".
#!/home/bbq/bin/perl
# Trust no1!
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I don't know about the less votes thing. Most days I
have more votes than I need, but sometimes I've got a
good use for every one (or I wish I could hold over
the ones that were left from the previous day).
Just having X votes doesn't mean a person needs to spend
X votes if there aren't the same number of deserving
articles. If someone really wants to be a munchkin,
I'm sure there are other ways of pumping up exp other
than getting that last vote bonus--such as creating
multiple logins which serve only to give the primary
login votes, or entering into an agreement with another
loser to promote each other's posts, etc. No matter what
you do, someone who is determined can cheat or abuse the
system.
I do think there should be some way for more advanced
monks to have more influence. One way is of course by
giving them more votes. Another way might be to have
their votes count more--perhaps carry a greater chance of
xp for the receipient, and to affect reputation by 2 instead
of 1. It certainly means more to me if I get a vote from
someone whom I respect than if I get one from the person
described in the previous paragraph. Or it would, if I
knew who had voted :)
I'm not sure that's a good idea though. There are some
things I vote for where I'd happily spend 3 votes if I
could, but a lot of the time I'm not that
enthralled with the post that I'd spend more than one
vote. Hmm, maybe some normal votes and some more powerful
votes?
Kudra - if exp doesn't matter, why do we seem to care so
much about voting? ;)
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> It certainly means more to me if I get a vote from
> someone whom I respect than if I get one from the
> person described in the previous paragraph. Or it
> would, if I knew who had voted :)
FWIW, I voted the above up. :)
You bring up some good points. Requiring cookies
and checking IPs and user-agent strings could possibly
detect people with multiple IDs, but it would not be
foolproof. I also agree that sometimes I want to vote
something down more than one (e.g. blank posts) but I
don't think that giving more than one vote to a post
would work. Such a system might lead to more abuse
by the above-mentioned "losers". Hopefully, there will
be more honest evaluations who will cancel out bad posts
which have been voted up dishonestly.
I would really like to be able to see the reputation
of a node before I vote. If a dumb post (IMO) has been
voted up by "losers", then I would like to spend my
vote to bring it down. If I have a single vote left and
there are two deserving posts, I would like to vote for
the one that has a reputation of (for example) "2" vs.
the one with a reputation of "12"
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I do think there should be some way for more advanced monks to have more
influence. One way is of course by giving them more votes. Another way might be to have their votes count more--perhaps carry a greater chance of xp for the receipient, and to affect reputation by 2 instead of 1. It certainly
means more to me if I get a vote from someone whom I respect than if I get one from the person described in the previous paragraph. Or it would, if I knew who had voted :)
I'm not sure that's a good idea though. There are some things I vote for where I'd happily spend 3 votes if I could, but a lot of the time I'm not that enthralled with the post that I'd spend more than one vote. Hmm, maybe
some normal votes and some more powerful votes?
I've been thinking about this. The write up for the voting/experience system mentions the possibility that higher level users would have the ability to appprove posts, or bless others, etc.
Perhaps a system where higher level users could mark things as being either particularly good or particularly bad, would be useful. It would also be good if it was possible for the higher level user to leave a private note for the poster. They could tell you why they liked or disliked the node.
We could use small icons that would appear anywhere it
presently tells you a posts reputation, to indicate a
blessing or a curse. Use different icons for positive
and negative markings and possibly different icons for
different levels of monk. The basic idea is that
clicking on the icon would let you read the comment.
If you tie this into the XP system, you could have a
variable chance of gaining or losing XP based on the
level of monk who has marked the post. It may also be
useful to make the probablility dependant on the
percentage of posts a user blesses or curses (i.e. an
abbott who blesses on average 5% of posts would be
have a much greater chance of incresing or decreasing
your experience than an abbot who blesses on average
50%).
Nuance
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To be able to do a "trusty vote" does it really matter how much XPs you have? Bottom line, I say keep the voting XPs but don't
increase the number of votes as you "grow".
Or, increase it, but not by as much as it is now. After all,
the idea of giving you more votes as you grow is the assumption
that as you have more experience, you are more qualified
to "grade" other people's comments, which makes sense.
I just made monk, and 16 votes per day is plenty to spend.
Maybe the increase could be by 2-3 votes per rank, instead of
by 3-5 as it is now.
--ZZamboni
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while ($PositiveVotes >= $NumberOfPosts){
foreach (new Post){
$XP++ if $_->receives('A Positive Vote');
}
}
This would certainly encourage quality posts,
discourage "noise" and "me too" posts, and give a
very real reward to those who go out of the way to produce
thoughtful and helpful posts.
Number of posts is currently a primary measure of a monk's
worth, but shouldn't we also reward the less wordy, but more
thoughtful monks among us?
This would be even more effective if there were
fewer non-posting ways to earn XP, but...
Russ | [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] [d/l] |
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I know what you're saying, but I don't beleive it works like that. Right now I'm at monk status too, and at the rate I'm going I'd probably hit friar in less than 20 days just by logging in every day and voting out at random. It seems that when you hit this status you don't really need to post at all to get XPs!
It gets even worse if you consider that a non-posting monk will increase his signal/noise ratio without any contribution whatsoever! Therefor I see increasing the number of votes as a bad idea.
Wow, my own post barely makes sense to me...
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To be able to do a "trusty vote" does it really matter how much XPs you have? Bottom line, I say keep the voting XPs but don't increase the number of votes as you "grow".
Or, increase it, but not by as much as it is now. After all, the idea of giving you more votes as you grow is the assumption that as you have more experience, you are more qualified to "grade" other people's comments, which makes sense.
I just made monk, and 16 votes per day is plenty to spend. Maybe the increase could be by 2-3 votes per rank, instead of by 3-5 as it is now
Ok, let's say we reduce the number of XP that you get for voting, or for using all of your available votes. This leaves a significant number of people in the higher levels who would not be there if the new system had been in place when they started using the site.
If people are really that concerned about this, are they prepared to be regraded using the new system?
It would be possible to go back through each monks previous posts, count up the grading, add the total number of posts and divide by three. That would provide a better reflection of the level that person would have attained, if they had been working under this proposed new system. We also gain experience for logging in regularly, so I don't really know that even this regrading would be fair.
My point is, are you sitting there having attained the level you are at, trying to make it harder for others to get there?
I don't expect this post to be popular, I just think this needs said.
BTW, is there any kind of record of where people's experience has come from? If people are regraded on the new system (if there is a change), then it might be an idea to keep a record of exactly where the XP have come from, how they were generated etc. keeping those kinds of detailed records, would make any future regrading that became necessary much easier.
Thanks for reading
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RE: RE: RE: Scalability of the voting system
by Adam (Vicar) on May 10, 2000 at 01:24 UTC
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Maybe there shouldn't be so much encouragement to use all your votes. What actual experience do I get using all of my votes? Maybe we should keep XP for voting, but remove the XP for using all your votes. | [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
RE: (3) Scalability of the voting system (underappreciated gems)
by ybiC (Prior) on Jul 07, 2000 at 18:49 UTC
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nice if voters dug through the archives to find some underappreciated gems
Adding an "Oldies but Goodies" section to the Monastery would help some of these gems resurface. Monks of a specified high level could earn XP by submitting past posts not by themselves. "Gems" would have to be n weeks old, and would be featured for 1 week.
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RE: RE: RE: Scalability of the voting system
by Russ (Deacon) on May 10, 2000 at 03:09 UTC
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$.02 from a not-yet-experienced-enough-to-even-vote monk...
I agree with Adam and Neshura. Voting should be primarily
an attempt to grant XP to the author of a well-written and/or
useful post (or, conversely, to inflict penance on a wayward
monk).
I like the incentive to participate in this great site, and
you should continue to give XP to those who vote, but perhaps
on a decreasing scale (The first vote has 25% chance of +1,
but the chance for XP declines for each vote thereafter.)
Russ
P.S. The XP nodelet shows (as I am posting this) that I
have graduated to level 2. Now I'll see what voting is really like... :-)
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