I'm going to respond in two parts.

On the subject of Alex the Serb's homenode in particular: it's crude. It doesn't especially bother me, but it obviously bothers you, and it probably bothers other people as well. If it were up to me, I'd probably leave it (and more specifically, the image) standing, but I wouldn't be particularly sad to see it go (and given the disclaimer associated with the edit-user-info image upload box, I see no obligation for the Powers That Be to keep it around).

On the subject of drawing lines and anti-anti rules: no bloody way. That way lies madness and unintended harm, because there's no way to codify a decent (heh) community standard in a couple of rules. At the very most, we might need to extend consideration to homenodes, if people start to complain about arbitrary censorship. Consideration keeps the community at large (especially if a particularly pungent node is roundly discussed in the chatterbox before being considered), and adds a level of accountability; I think those criteria are perfectly reasonable if we start yanking content from home nodes.

As for limiting anti-foobar sentiments to the case where foobar is technical: what makes technical holy wars any more sensical than non-technical ones? Since when is the vi-vs-emacs flamefest objective, for instance?

Community-based oversight I can cope with, but if we start imposing black-and-white rules on this monastery's content I will leave and never come back.

Update: After a fair bit of thought, I upvoted Juerd's node. Dammit, we need this sort of discussion to keep Perl Monks a good community. Self-examination is good. If you don't agree with him, reply instead of downvoting.

--
:wq

If possible, I think there should be a rule that says anti-$anything is disallowed, unless the $anything is technical.

I have a deep-rooted hatred for cute, cuddly kittens. I'm not too fond of little ducklings, either. Am I banned, now?

This monastery is supposed to be friendly (if I understood correctly), but how many of you think this particular home node is friendly?

The monastery is supposed to be friendly, and if a user gets out of line in his interactions with other monks, there are provisions in place for that. What people put on their homenode, however, is pretty much up to them. The monastery neither approves, nor disapproves of its content (not withstanding any breaches of security or copyright law). If you don't like the homenode, don't go there. It's that easy.

Alex, please base your views on what most Europeans do - ugly American tourists. Hell when I'm abroad I pretend I'm Canadian so I don't have to be lumped with those polyester wearing, toupee flapping, wigs a wailing, sour puss exports (why can't they just do in Rome what the fricking Romans do).

Just as long as Alex doesn't blatantly interject his anti-NATO feelings into technical discussions (that is in a non-sequiter non sequitur way), I'm fine with his stance and his home node.

-derby

--
perl -pe "s/\b;([st])/'\1/mg"

I can not tell you how disturbing Juerd's post is to me, and how much the post by an anonymous monk concerning PerlMonks integrity in the face FBI investigation linking Alex the Serb with terrorism scares me.

I had to downvote Juerd because while PerlMonks is a perl/techincally oriented site, a user's homenode is his little "home", his area to express his beliefs/views/opinions. If Alex associates NATO's policies with the Nazi regime, then we need to accept that fact, and hopefully try to understand where he is coming from.

I have to strongly disagree with Juerd, concerning the policy of "no anti-anything". What about rants concerning the extreme incompetence of management ala' Dilbert? No Dilbert because some manager might get his feelings hurt? And what if you decided to put an American Flag on your homenode? Well, alot of people see America as the enemy, and in many cases America is the enemy. Should your flag be removed? I realize the second example is less inflamitory because you are promoting one thing, not attacking another, but I am sure you would have a problem with someone flying the Nazi flag over their homenode.

A keyword throughout this discussion has been "community", and I fail to see how removing/censoring Alex the Serb's homenode will enhance the community at large. I personally feel that the more ideas that are expressed within a community, the more close knit and functional the community can be come, allowing for X number of close minded people.

My concerns regarding the integrity of PerlMonks are almost outside the scope of this discussion, but ... Let me preface this by saying I love the PerlMonks community and thinks it add infintissimle wealth to the the Perl community at large. These concerns go back to the censoring of some node involving DeCSS, which was entirely legal because the tables needed to decrypt the CSS were not involved, but that is OT. I firmly believe that this community is worthwhile because it is based on many different "things", the paramount of these "things" is the right to say anything to the point of absurdity. I believe with out this right, the community cannot exists, so to sacrafice it (censoring homenodes for example) to save the PerlMonks community (from the DMCA or the FBI) would also sacrafice the community.

In conclusion, I think a users homenode should be free from the restrictions of good taste, integrity, or technical validity.

Nato

The hundreds of thousands of people, from all over the world, who died (often in countries they had never heard of let alone had any personal allegance to) in World War II, defending unversal concepts such as freedom, justice, and equality. Personally I include freedom of speech, and the right to protest. (Yes this does imply that I believe Nato is merely an exension of the "Allies" of WWII)

US

At one time the united states was the symbol of people overcoming harsh and remote government and replacing it with governemnt of the people by the people. (I say one time because it is debateable as to whether or not these anti-imperialist credentials are still valid.)

Since the very symbols that Alex The Serb has chosen to denigrate are at least in part about freedom of speech then I can't see how we could justify such an action.

Furthermore, I wonder if this debate in of itself teaches Alex The Serb a little bit about real western morals and culture. I wonder if he has reflected whether in former regimes equivelent anti-serb or anti-yugoslavian symbols would have been tolerated, and I wonder if this entire situation had been reversed how many people like Alex The Serb would have spoken up in defence of the individuals right to ridicule whomever and whatever they choose.

Lastly, ive often thought the best way to respond to hate is through ridicule not repression. Hate is a very serious matter and hateful people are usually better undermined by honest laughter than any form of repression.

So my last words would be :hahahahahahah

Yves / DeMerphq
---
Writing a good benchmark isnt as easy as it might look.

Hate is a very serious matter and hateful people are usually better undermined by honest laughter than any form of repression.

Or better yet, attempting to view the issue from his perspective while intelligently discussing the subject and acknowledging that he is entitled to his opinion :-).

I'm against banning home nodes based on node contents. For instance, I'm not christian. I'm Pagan. Is this a reason for banning me and/or my home node from the Monastery? I sincerely hope not.

What would be the next step? Excluding TheDevil from the Monastery because of a somewhat unexpected choice of user name? That would lead us down a road I won't follow.

What would be the next step? Excluding TheDevil from the Monastery because of a somewhat unexpected choice of user name?

Good point. But I think directly offending people is too much. Pro-$something doesn't always mean anti-$opposite. I think a user should not have a swastika-like NATO symbol, and I think that directly offending should not be allowed. I'm not saying Alex the Serb has to be pro-America, or has to love NATO.

U28geW91IGNhbiBhbGwgcm90MTMgY
W5kIHBhY2soKS4gQnV0IGRvIHlvdS
ByZWNvZ25pc2UgQmFzZTY0IHdoZW4
geW91IHNlZSBpdD8gIC0tIEp1ZXJk

As FoxtrotUniform pointed out, this discussion is definitively healthy for the Monastery. I would like to add that it's healthy for any community.

I dislike the image you're referring to, and I dislike the messages on the home node you're referring to as well. But I think that someone that is very comitted to Christianity may be offended by other statements on this site. I understand your point of view to "draw the line" somewhere. The problem is just to define, even on a case by case basis, where to draw it.

Maybe some kind of consideration with voting on home nodes would make sense?



---

Everything went worng, just as foreseen.

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(_|| | |(_|><
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[download]

Let's give this a little time to see if it works itself out.

dvergin

although I don't like Alex the Serb's homenode either and think that the monastir is not a good place for politics, I absolutely disagree what you are trying to do.

He isn't committing a crime with expressing his opinion. It is just a shame that he didn't explain in a better way why he is posting this picture on his nomenode, and why he doesn't like the Nato.

Do you think the following cuts of postings are ok?

• Dont buy products from company X because Y (can't remember the node)
• All other programming languages than perl are s***
• If you don't see that, you're optimizing for beginners or something, but not for maintenance and reduced defects. That means you are going to cost your employer more money overall, and increase his risk, making you less hireable.

Perhaps - if you remember - only some years ago, the Nato was leading war against his country. And whoever was right, war in my eyes always is a very, very bad thing...

Alex, I'd really appreciate if you wrote some lines about your reasons.

Best regards,
perl -le "s==*F=e=>y~\*martinF~stronat~=>s~[^\w]~~g=>chop,print"

only some years ago, the Nato was leading war against his country.

And at the same time, his country troops were creating eight hundred thousand refugees and killing seven thousands ethnic Albanians. (see related data) .

He is not the only one with a grudge, (or I could also mention Bosnia) but this is not the right place to nurse it.

Could we stick to Perl and tell him to either do the same or find a better place for his questionable political claims?

Now if you think that this node should be reaped, so is the one I was answering. Either we ignore politics, or we give anyone equal opportunities.

Dear Anonymous Monk,

you seem to have an account at perlmonks; why do you post as anonymous?

I don't know if Alex is responsible for the war that started as civil war until Nato thought it had to take party against the Serbs. I don't know enough about the reasons why this civil war started, so I can't tell you who was right. And if I think about the question if there exists a right position in any war, I come to the conclusion: certainly not. (but following this issue becomes too philosophic and too much for my bad english).

If you want to blame him for the former politics of the country he lives in ("And at the same time, his country troops were creating eight hundred thousand refugees and killing seven thousands ethnic Albanians".) I could as well blame every German and Austrian for Hitler, every Russian for Stalin (who killed about 30 Mio people AFAIK), every American for the Slavery of Millions of Africans and the killing lots of Native Americans or how they are(were?) coping some Afghan prisoners in Cuba, every Britain for the dirty deeds in South Africa, every Israeli for torture being legal for prisoners until about summer two years ago (just to mention some examples). In war, the greatest loser always is the population living in the region of war. And who truely is right in a war normaly is in the viewer's point of view.

But I agree to you to better sticking to perl and asking him to do the same.

Comment on changement: thanks to danichka for giving me the words: "Native Americans"

Best regards,
perl -le "s==*F=e=>y~\*martinF~stronat~=>s~[^\w]~~g=>chop,print"

Those ethnic Albanians had been creating refugees for some time before the troops interfered. And created quite a few more after the troops were forced to move out. Quite a few.

I wonder how are americans going to act when there's enough ethnic mexicans in the southern states to start forcing the remains of white(r) folk out and requesting autonomy. Though I doubt anyone is going to bomb New York then.

Jenda


Support Denmark! Defend the free world!

• Freedom of speech is not a guarentee on this board, as this board is about a specific topic. It is not about C++, C, Java, Farming, Ship Building or the physics of flight. It is about Perl. Sometimes in the chat room, we get OT in a big way. Some times others in the chat room shut down the OT in their own way. But, as has been mentioned, NodeReaper normally removes the OT comment from the boards. This board is built, managed, and provided at the pleasure of the Owner of the board. Though he is kind enough to allow so many to contribute in a large way.
• Offensive material can take many forms. How many wars were born of different religious/political views. Each holding the notion that for the betterment of society (or the soul) their ideas are the best. Most of us have a very difficult time seeing issues from the other side of the box. This individual's view is not much different than the views of many millions if not billions of people in this world. I do not have to agree with their views, but I must accept that it is their views. If we do not accept their views (as their views) then things like Sept 11th in the US become not only much more possible, but much more probable.
• Most people who write about their viewpoints (esp their feelings) present them in a hurried "childish" unreferenced manner. These are feelings, not facts. Teach 2 months in a grade school or middle school, and you will see what I mean. Unfortunately, most people stop developing their communication skills somewhere in this range.
• I am a US citizen. I have lived in 7 states and travelled in at least 20 more. I have been in Canada many times. I may not be an expert on the world, but I have experienced enough of the US to know that we are a great mix of people, from the dumbest most insulting people you could ever expect to the most gracious uplifting individuals you could ever expect to share time with.
• I have been forced to listen to hate mongering in many forms and love nurturing in many others. I fear censorship. The real solutions are good educations and good socioeconomic environments. Why? A good education gives people the ability to think rationally about their's and others' situations. A good socioeconomic environment helps prevent the struggle for survival where death is a very real and certain outcome of not triumphing over other people or situations.
• About keeping this person's node around? As a community, we are already talking about community standards (keeping or getting rid of either way is a standard). As a community we will voice our opinion and maybe it will be enforced and maybe it will not. I would rather have the chance to read an opinion than not have a chance to read an opion even if I find the opinion ignorant and ranting. At least now I have a chance to understand this individual better even if I like them less.

I did not post this, though, to refute all of Alex's misguided "facts". I am making this post in reply to Juerd's Friendly home node.

I think gmax has hit the nail on the head. Yes, you do have the right to free speech (depending on what country you live in I guess), but Perlmonks also has the right to moderate what you say. Is this an infringement on free speech? No, of course not! You can go into a movie theatre and start spouting your mouth off, and claim it is your right due to free speech; however, it is the right of the movie theatre to remove you from the premises as well, and they will. It is the same with Perlmonks, it is their website and they can choose to enforce whatever rules they want.

Perlmonks has a guide to the Monestery:

What Perl Monks is:

• Our attempt to make learning Perl as nonintimidating and easy to use as possible.
• A place for you and others to polish, improve, and showcase your Perl skills.
• A community which allows everyone to grow and learn from each other.

I for one, would not be sorry to see it disappear.

wohlgek

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and it'll probably be chopped off by a mass of -- votes. So be it. There seems to be enough direction to the general sentiment that I feel the need to express a dissenting opinion.

I'm not entirely in agreement with everything written or depicted on this node. There are many things on it, in fact, that I strongly disagree with. That said, I'm all for letting it stay, picture and all.

Not for letting its owner suffer a loss of reputation for his opinions, not for showing how the Monastary can be abused, and not for comparing against others, but for letting the person behind the name speak his mind.

If the anti-American or anti-NATO nature of the message is what offends you, maybe you need to stop here and ask yourself why that is the case. Would you be less offended if the message were different, perhaps directed against something that you feel is not right? Can you acknowledge that some people disagree with your opinion of America? What would you say if I were to post an anti-Alex the Serb rant on my home node that attacks his views? (And can you see how some of the replies to the parent were exactly this?)

This post is, of course, my opinion. You're free to disagree with it, just as you are free to disagree with the node in question. I don't think, though, that you have any right to tell me to remove it.

=cut
--Brent Dax
There is no sig.

Personally I find his page hideously offensive in several different ways, and unbecoming of a monk. If this was a Buddhist monastery for example, the head monk would thwack him with a bamboo stick and tell him to sit up straight and focus on Perl. Haven't got up the courage to go to the temple next door at 6 am Sunday and try it myself though.. :)

The swastika might be illegal for German monks to view.

It is emotional illness to post many requests for help to people while insulting them as best he can. Poor guy.

But because of the PM custom of linking to a user's node every time they are mentioned, I think he is taking advantage of PM's architecture to spread hate. A hate-monger, not a perl-monger. How rabid, the anti-monk. I mean he posts a swastika while saying he's against the Nazis, he thanks people while telling horrible American jokes, he just can't calm down.

His replies (4/7) imply that monks who support the continued existence of his current node are somehow allied with his views. I am not for new policies, but do think it possible to protect freedom without enabling media-hacking by hate-filled individuals. Recently there was a big uproar about relatively benign media-hacking by some of the saint level monks who add characters to their post titles. Too bad nobody took me up on smileys..

My suggestion is that he be asked to remove most everything on his home node above his reply due to its extremely antagonistic content which is not appropriate to PM. I've read it several times to be fair and am utterly nauseated and am afraid I will stumble over a link to this node and click it by accident. I really don't want to do that, it strikes nerves that shouldn't have to be struck when I'm at PM. At least I don't hit AgentM's page by accident (actually I forget what's there but won't go change my browser to find out).

I think PM makes it too easy for people to disturb the environment with hate and idiocy. It takes a thick skin, but there are limits as our AMs will tell you.

The net Hate site was useful to me. They have so much crap listed it makes Alex's work look like script-kiddie droppings. Then there is a link at the bottom to antiracist sites. They say they promote freedom of speech and I suppose it is important to be able to look this shit in the face to work against it. But we've tried talking. Let's work against hatred here, and either get the offensive text off PerlMonks, or add a Javascript alert that tells people it contains information likely offensive to most people. That way new users will know what this guy is thinking when he talks to them online. We can talk more but if he keeps it up I will reply to every question of his I see with a reference to his home node.