(Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes

The problems you raise are the things that these new solutions are trying to resolve. Let's take your points one at a time:

1) This system makes posting too much like karma. All we need is a site full of karma whores (sarchasm).

Agreed. What we have right now are people reaching high rank without ever contributing anything useful to the site. The fastest way to gain XP is to simply use all your votes every day, and people do that regardless of the quality of the nodes they are voting for. This makes it impossible to gain large amounts of XP unless other monks think you deserve it.

2) A person might post a very astute and intelligent answer to a question burried deep in the system. Nobody might see it/care about it except for the person asking the question. They wouldn't get XP for it.

Yes, that's possible. It happens all the time now. There is no real way to fix that, except to say that I and some other monks that I know of make it a point to search out these posts and vote for them. I think more people will do that, if they don't get a particularly large reward just for voting.

3) I view XP as a measure of site-participation. Voting/Posting/So Forth are part of site participation.

XP should be a measure of site participation, but it really isn't. The best measure right now - the means by which I measure my respect for other monks - is not their XP, but the number and quality of their posts. I respect people who answer questions throughly and frequently. I respect people who make intelligent contributions to discussions of new features or events. I respect people who make insightful and interesting points in Meditations, or those poems that make me stop and think for a minute.

I don't respect, and see no reason to respect, people who simply gather XP by voting out every day. Where is the contribution that they've made?

4) A lot of things are voted way up that aren't really adding that much to the site, but deserve to be voted up. Someone posting something minor that is cute or funny would get mad XP just for posting something cute or funny.

Exactly. If something gets voted up because it's cute or funny - so what? That's part of the community, not just Perl code. But if things are getting massive amounts of Rep, even when they don't deserve that... why is that? Simple. Everyone wants to vote out and get that XP. This system removes the incentive to do that. That, in fact, is the main point behind it.

We can't fix the fact that funny replies get more rep than some really well-written answers. That's a "society" problem. The only way to fix it would be to appoint a committee to rate and evaluate every post for quality - and we are NOT going to do that.

- email Ozymandias

Update: Following ybiC's response I decided to reread and take a look at this. I hadn't meant it to be condescending, but I suppose I can see where others might think it is.

All I meant by it is that any cure for the problem that we can possibly implement would be worse than the disease. We spent a lot of time discussing this problem when we were designing the system, and in the end decided there was no fair way to fix it. All we can do is ask people to remember the point when casting their votes.

Comment on (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
RE: (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes by ivory (Pilgrim) on Aug 03, 2000 at 23:20 UTC
I agree that XP should be a measure of site participation, but I still think we should get XP from voting rather than just from posting. The site is designed for people of all skill levels, not just for Perl gods who can answer all the questions that come up, and thus you have to think of people just starting out when you make these policies. A lof of people are just nervous to post (some monks are not as diplomatic as others when a post is bad). The XP that come from voting encourage not only better post (because you come to know what you like/dislike about certain posts, but also what others in the community like/dislike), but they also encourage new monks to read all kinds of posts, not just the "easy sounding ones". --Ivory	[reply]
RE: RE: (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes by Ozymandias (Hermit) on Aug 03, 2000 at 23:40 UTC
ybiC hit the nail on the head, Ivory; that's EXACTLY why we left a bonus in place up to Level 5. One of our primary concerns was the newer monks; we don't want to make it so difficult to participate that newer monks don't feel welcome. The idea is that they will get the boost from voting, but at the same time advance slowly enough that by the time they lose the bonus, we hope they will be comfortable enough to participate through posting. As for making people of all skill levels welcome... well, I'm not a great Perl coder, by any measure, but I feel welcome here. I hope that others do, too. That's one reason why we decided against weighting some categories over others; you can make great contributions to this site and its community without ever making a single post in Categorized Q&A or Seekers of Perl Wisdom. And those who choose to make their contributions in those other areas should be rewarded every bit as much as the people who answer a dozen questions a day. I don't pretend this system we devised is perfect. We all think it's a step forward, and enough of us were involved, from enough levels of the community, that I feel confident we covered everybody. But there's room for improvement in the new system, too; why not stop by irc.slashnet.org #perlmonks and help us out? We could use it. - email Ozymandias	[reply]
RE: (4) Proposed XP System Changes (vote-out bonus) by ybiC (Prior) on Aug 03, 2000 at 23:28 UTC
Understandable concern. I believe that's why vroom is keeping the "vote-out bonus" up to Monk(5) - to give less-than-guru Monks a good start. cheers, ybiC	[reply]
RE: (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes by Nitsuj (Hermit) on Aug 04, 2000 at 00:16 UTC
If votes don't affect XP, why not give everyone unlimitted voting priveledges? I suppose that the obvious answer to this would be that people with higher XP deserve to have more of an effect on the site. (Just thought that deserved to be out in the open) Also, how is one to gain enough XP to really effect the site if voting and such doesn't help it? I think that voting gives you too much XP. I think that cutting it down to 1/6 is a good idea, and perhaps giving you 1/10th of the votes you user per day. I mean, I think that I was accepted into the community pretty quickly, I've been reading and lurking for a long time, but only recently have I begun to post and such, but I really don't vote on people that I don't know... because I never KNOW to read their nodes. I think that a lot of people don't read my nodes because they don't know me. How many people have read my string evaluation node? It may be impractical in perl code, but it is good computer science. (not to seem fat headed, I could say that of almost any node I wanted to). I think that part of the problem with eliminating the use of votes entirely is that it doesn't provide a way IN to the site without chatting a lot. You might not be able to shut me up, but a lot of the more shy individuals may feel intimidated by participation in the chatterbox. Whereas a person like me who never shuts up might easily gain XP through a system focused on rep, a person shy person will be overlooked entirely, it could be Larry Wall incognito, and we'd miss him entirely. I do think that it's too easy to attain high rank though. I think that rep should be more important. I think that you should require more XP too. I think that a lot of my posts haven't earned me a lot of XP, but I deserve more XP for that than for voting. I do like how the ranks are set up though. It should take a long time to be considered a saint here, but merely being interested and taking part should make you a monk. I mean, it's called perlMONKS, not perl initiates ;-) Just Another Perl Hacker	[reply]
RE: RE: (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes by mikfire (Deacon) on Aug 04, 2000 at 00:38 UTC
Votes do affect XP. The voter still draws a bonus for casting a vote until they reach monk level. The votee gets an XP bonus from the cast vote no matter what level the votee is at. I cannot speak for other monks. I do not look at who wrote the article when I read it or when I vote. I vote on the article based on a couple of really simple criteria, based on where it is in the Monestary. I vote for a question in Q&A or SoPW if the question makes me think "Hmm, how does that work?" or if I recognize it as a problem I have had and really had to slave out of it. I vote for answers if they are clear, precise and are of a "good" tone. I also like answers that address larger issues and try to answer even the unasked questions. Most everywhere else, I vote for an article if it makes me laugh. I vote for an article if it is well written and makes me think a bit. Nowhere in my system do I care who wrote it. I am sorry if we miss the shy people. They are important to this site. I am not sorry if we miss Larry Wall incognito, cause that is what he wants - by the very definition of the word incognito. I feel that allowing karma whores and the whole slashdot thing is more dangerous than missing the shy people. Make your proposal. The goals are to encourage and increase the reward for particpating, to keep the signal/noise ratio high and make the levels somewhat indicative of how much a monk has given to the community. vroom reads this stuff. If it is a good idea, he will think about it. I can't speak to the missed articles, cause I have a fair number that received nowhere near the number of votes they should have as well. mikfire	[reply]
RE: RE: RE: (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes by Nitsuj (Hermit) on Aug 04, 2000 at 00:43 UTC
Whoa. I like the new system, as it was implemented. It was too easy to aquire status before, by just voting. I have only been posting for a month or so now, so I certainly don't deserve high rank yet. I was just saying that voting is important as well. Some people were saying that it should be taken out entirely. I was merely stating my opinion on the matter, not condemning anyone elses. Oh yeah, I meant to mention, I know that MY PERSONAL system of voting is guilty of favoritism towards those that I know, but not on purpose. In this order, I read 1) Stuff people I chat with wrote 2) Newest Nodes 3) Questions Just out of personal interest. 1) I want to know what my friends are up to 2) I want the news 3) I like to help and that's pretty much the order that they occur to me in. I know that PERSONALLY I am guilty in that such a system causes me to have to reevaluate how I use my votes, since typically, I blow them all like a kid with change in his pocket (OOOHHH, that's funny, OOOH, that's smart), and then I run out of votes in the afternoon, after lunch and my coffee is all gone, when I am saying, "DOH! I wish that I could vote this up. I'll have to tommorow." And then tommorow comes, and I burn up my votes, and it repeats.	[reply]
RE: RE: (Ozymandias) RE: RE: Proposed XP System Changes by nuance (Hermit) on Aug 04, 2000 at 01:03 UTC
I don't look to see who wrote a node either before I vote on it. In fact I try not to let who the poster is affect which way I vote (if at all). Oh yeah and I try to read every node as well (just about still practical) *Nuance*	[reply]
RE: (3) Proposed XP System Changes (valid points Ozy) by ybiC (Prior) on Aug 03, 2000 at 23:20 UTC
Good monk Ozymandias, I agree with most all your points and was about to ++, but the last paragraph in particular comes across as condescending (true as it likely is 8^). Mind you not worth --, but the tone detracts from the reasoned thoughts presented. cheers, ybiC	[reply]


laziness, impatience, and hubris
	PerlMonks