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Re: Questions wanted for Pugs/Perl6

by Limbic~Region (Chancellor)
on Feb 22, 2005 at 13:47 UTC ( #433329=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Questions wanted for Pugs/Perl6

autrijus,
What I hear from people in the net community when I mention Perl6 or Parrot is:

I don't want to learn Parrot or compile ICU - I don't want to have to hack anything to get it to work - I just want to download something and start coding.

I would turn this sentiment into the following question:

Can I download an executable and just start coding Perl6?

Cheers - L~R

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^2: Questions wanted for Pugs/Perl6
by perlfan (Vicar) on Feb 22, 2005 at 15:44 UTC
    The thing that strikes me is the duplicate effort to implement Perl6. Asside from being an academic exercise, wouldn't it be more prudent to contribute to the existing effort or do it in a way that would be allow people to "download something and start coding" - namely in within Parrot, in c, or even in Perl 5? I applaud the effort, but is this really going to be useful in the long run? If not, why create yet-another-project to draw resources away from what has already been committed to?
      Greetings. I think chromatic has put it succintly: you seem to assume that if it weren't for Pugs, everyone working on Pugs would put the same amount of effort to the same effects into Perl 6. That not the case; Pugs has inspired dozens of people actively hacking unit tests and patches, mostly from people who will otherwise not be able to contribute to the Perl6 effort.

      Actually, the reverse of what you assumed is happening; Pugs is increasingly seen as a much more viable way to bootstrap the Perl6 process, and has been of much help for the language design.

      Also note that for many platforms, GHC is much easier to install than Parrot. :-) So I encourage you to install a GHC binary, download Pugs, and start hacking Perl6 now and send patches to perl6-compiler, as other people are doing now.

      Thanks,
      /Autrijus/

        people actively hacking unit tests

        To which I add that unit tests aren't Pugs specific. They're written in Perl 6, so they can test both Pugs and --when it's around-- perl6.

        Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }

      Saying "draw resources away" assumes something I'm not comfortable assuming, namely that if it weren't for Pugs, everyone working on Pugs would put the same amount of effort to the same effects into Perl 6. Maybe that's true, but I doubt it.

      The thing that strikes me is the duplicate effort to implement Perl6.
      In order to duplicate something, doesn't there have to be an original? Where's the existing Perl6 interpreter? In fact, isn't Perl6 itself a duplicate effort? We already have a perfectly usuable and Turing complete Perl5. Anything that you could do with Perl6, you can already do with Perl5.
      Aside from being an academic exercise,
      What's wrong with an academic exercise? Maybe the author is doing this mainly to learn Perl6, or Haskell, or interpreter design. Maybe producing a Perl6 interpreter is merely a side-effect of the author's goal. In that light, Pugs is pure gravy.
      wouldn't it be more prudent to contribute to the existing effort or do it in a way that would be allow people to "download something and start coding" - namely in within Parrot, in c, or even in Perl 5?
      What if you don't agree that the current effort is proceeding in the best way possible? Should a person merely sit around and complain, or do something? What if the author isn't interested in Parrot, or C or even Perl 5. Why should anyone have to volunteer to work with tools they don't like?
      I applaud the effort, but is this really going to be useful in the long run?
      What if the author isn't interested in being useful in the long run? So what if it doesn't become useful in the long run? In the long run, we're all dead. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
      If not, why create yet-another-project to draw resources away from what has already been committed to?
      What resources are being drawn away? It seems like a large chunk of resources have been added to the existing effort (Pugs is the proof). Are you paying the author money which you would have donated to the existing effort? Do you wish to force the author to do your bidding? Isn't Free Software all about the freedom to take a project in any direction you see fit?


      -- All code is 100% tested and functional unless otherwise noted.
        If the author wants to do it, then ++ to him. I am not criticizing him, I just don't understand why everyone $h1t talks Perl6/Parrot, yet doesn't help - yet when they do it is for a different, yet parallel effort.

        You ask what resources the author is pulling away from Perl6? How about his 0wn? That is not to say, again, that I am criticizing him. I applaud his interest, but how is this going to fit into the greater picture? It doesn't have to "fit" into any picture, but if that is the case, then say so.

        Lastly, I don't know why you threw in that Perl is a "Turing complete" language. While true, this is certainly nothing special or unique.
      ...wouldn't it be more prudent to contribute to the existing effort...?

      Sure, and that's exactly what people are doing. While following what autrijus is working on, a lot of people have been able to pick up some knowledge of how Perl 6 will work. They've found difficult and ambiguous sections of documentation. They've asked questions. They've found things that didn't seem to work. They've written code and contributed test cases. All of these things help to improve Perl 6 and will help to shorten timeline to get to Perl 6.

        cool beans, then...I am just asking questions, too, not trying to p1$$ anyone off...:P

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