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Bad Religion!

by Logicus (Initiate)
on Jul 23, 2011 at 01:14 UTC ( #916242=perlmeditation: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

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Re: Bad Religion!
by chromatic (Archbishop) on Jul 23, 2011 at 01:43 UTC
    ... what you need to do is study reams and reams CPAN modules, the highest order of perl possible, and to show absolute GRADE A++ P.H.D computing knowledge.

    If you want to advance the state of the art, you should be familiar with the state of the art. If you're not familiar with the state of the art, you have a hard sell convincing people who are that your ideas do advance the state of the art.

    Otherwise your a fool, an idiot and you ought to give up programming entirely because your not good enough.

    No one said that.

    My quote means that Perl lets people do things without ceremony and without necessarily doing things the "right" way. That doesn't mean that any way you do things is necessarily the "right" way—you have to keep in mind maintainability and predictability and security, for example.

    Many people have many strong opinions on this site, but in general we all want the same thing: to help other people become better programmers and write great programs. By all means question the advice given and do your own research, but know this: if I'd had PerlMonks circa 2011 available when I started using Perl 5, I'd have avoided a lot of painful and costly mistakes.

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Re: Bad Religion!
by jdporter (Chancellor) on Jul 23, 2011 at 01:25 UTC

    No, it's all good. The essence of the problem* is that you're more intent on selling us your special brand of non-Perl snake oil, rather than learning how to maximize your Perl power. If we wanted other programming languages, we already have Ruby/Scheme/Java/C#/Haskell/etc. And as pathetic as your language is relative to Perl, it's at least as pathetic relative to these other real programming languages.

    * The problem being you not getting along too well with this community.

    I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.
Re: Bad Religion!
by mr_mischief (Monsignor) on Jul 24, 2011 at 17:52 UTC

    You are not the first to accuse this site of being a den of elitism. I think if you'll take a step back and look around, though, you'll find that's not quite true.

    There are a few people here out of the many people using the site who come off as elitist to a more or less degree more or less of the time. Many of the ones who do don't even intend to do that. They are just so used to having good answers and people accepting what they give that they sometimes forget that new people don't defer to them in awe. They really are elite rather than elitist pretenders, but it might take some time to find out one from the other. It's part of the community dynamic that forms in any technical discussion forum, and probably in any guild-like or gift-culture scenario for that matter. Knowing who is a valuable contributor to a group is part of communing with that group. It's yet another reason for the sage old advice to lurk a while before posting and to contribute before challenging the status quo.

    You make some good points in some of your posts. However, you often word your posts brusquely. I've been known to do that, as have some others. It's forgivable once in a while. You also go on the attack before following through answering a question asked of you. Some people here have shown a positive interest in what you're trying to present and taking a deeper look at it. They will not be convinced of its greatness on your word, but they have asked to see it and what is special about it. That level of interest in your work is not a slight against you. It is, in fact, a high form of praise at your initial mention of your work. You seem to have taken the opposite view, that not immediately assuming the work is groundbreaking without having a chance to further study it is an insult to you. That is unfortunate. Communicating this impression may not have been your intent, but it is what many people are getting by reading your nodes here.

    Several people here have labelled you a troll and will thus downvote this node just for me responding to you. Let them. This is not because they disapprove of your work. It is because you have been rude according to the social mores of this group, with no past build-up of trust from previous positive input. There are several people trying to remind the users of this site that each post should stand on its own merits, but you are upsetting people quickly and reliably enough that they are sharing ways to never see your posts. If your true intention is to troll, then you're not going to be able to very effectively because most of the users will eventually not see your nodes. If your true intention is to get help to be a better programmer, a better Perl programmer, and to better evaluate and improve your project then the same caveat applies. People will not be badgered (badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom) into helping you. They'll just ignore you unless you approach the site and the topic of your work in a friendlier way.

    You may notice I moved this thread into Perl Monks Discussion and out of Meditations. Your initial node here is about the site, so I felt it was a more appropriate place. It is not an attempt to bury your opinion, but to place it in the appropriate venue. Others at this point may use other tools available to them to try to bury this thread. That would be a shame. This thread is valuable to the community as a whole, even if people decide they don't like you or what your initial node in this thread has to say.

    As a matter of fact, although I think you have shown a bit of a habit to overreact to criticism here, I think there has been just as much of an overreaction to you by some other users. You have a point that sometimes people here don't seem very inclusive, but i think that if you'd give the community more of a break the community would give you more of a break.

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Re: Bad Religion!
by zentara (Archbishop) on Jul 23, 2011 at 11:44 UTC
    I was musing to post a similar meditation to yours, based on a quote I saw by Einstein, and it seemed to remind me of the problem. I decided not to make the post, because I'm not an XPWhore ;-), but your node seemed like an invitation from the Tao. :-)

    Theory is when you know all and nothing works. Practice is when all works and nobody knows why. (Albert Einstein)

    As it relates to manipulexity and whipuptitude and religion, the modules work well in practice, but very few know why. Whearas, back in the pre-module days of Perl4, everyone could see why, but nothing worked. :-) The best example is the CGI module, try using the often seen manual Perl4 cgi readparse code

    sub ReadParse { local($name, $value, $pair, $buffer, @pairs); if ($ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} eq 'GET') { @pairs = split(/&/, $ENV{'QUERY_STRING'}); } elsif ($ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} eq 'POST') { read(STDIN, $buffer, $ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'}); # @pairs = split(/&/, $buffer); # } else { $Error_Message = "Bad request method ($ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'}). Use PO +ST or GET"; return(0); } foreach $pair (@pairs) { ($name, $value) = split(/=/, $pair); $name =~ tr/+/ /; $name =~ s/%([a-fA-F0-9][a-fA-F0-9])/pack("C", hex($1))/eg; $name =~ s/\n//g; $value =~ tr/+/ /; $value =~ s/%([a-fA-F0-9][a-fA-F0-9])/pack("C", hex($1))/eg; $value =~ s/\n//g; $value =~ s/<!--(.|\n)*-->//g; # disallow SSI $in{$name} = $value; } return; }
    and compare it to
    use CGI; my $query = CGI->new(); my @names = $query->param;
    The second modular one almost always works, but the average programmer does not know why. The first, allows the programmer to see why, but it seldom works out in the real world anymore.

    Other modules follow a similar course, try writing your own program to do mail with multiple attachments, then compare it's ease and functionality to code written using MIME::Lite. Or try writing your own html parser code.

    There is no Bad Religion, in a world of religous freedom. There is just your religion and then there is the other guy's. The first step toward religous intolerance, is to start yelling the other guy has a bad religion.

    It is true, some religions put you on the path to enlightenment faster, but maybe some people can't handle a quick awakening, so the slow paths to enlightenment are still needed.

    Update: just to prove I'm susceptible too, see Gmail ssl pop mail stopped working. (SOLVED) , where my overlooking a simple thing like Content-type in the header, causes my manual code to fail, where the module worked!!

    I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth.
    Old Perl Programmer Haiku ................... flash japh
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Re: Bad Religion!
by sundialsvc4 (Abbot) on Jul 26, 2011 at 14:12 UTC

    This web-site is a gathering place for professional programmers, as well as newcomers to the Perl language, expressly for the purpose of helping all of us to more effectively please, and satisfy the business needs of, our clients and/or our employers.   That’s it.

    Therefore:   kindly keep your personal opinions, and your not-so-concealed vindictives aimed at complete strangers, to yourself.   Your fifteen minutes are up.

    This is a highly public place, occupied by your (and my) esteemed colleagues, any one of whom might one day be ... in the very, very small world that is this profession ... the one and only person who can either open a critical door for you, or, forever keep it shut.   A bull never comprehends the value of those little shards of ceramic as he is leaving the shop.   (Maybe that’s why, in the end, they become hamburger.)

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Re: Bad Religion!
by Lady_Aleena (Priest) on Aug 01, 2011 at 19:45 UTC

    Logicus, if your end conclusion were true, I would not be here. I am a class-A dunce here most of the time. You do not know how many times I have overcomplicated my code, only to be nicely shown a simpler way of doing things. The people here have been really great to me over the years though the nasty and nice. I still don't know everything I should, but they encourage me to grow all the time but don't expect me to know everything, thank GUH! These people are saints in my eyes.

    Have a cookie and a very nice day!
    Lady Aleena
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Re: Bad Religion!
by ZlR (Chaplain) on Nov 03, 2011 at 15:02 UTC
      I prefer this one tbh

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