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in reply to Re^6: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
in thread 20 most important Perl Best Practices
trying to imagine I was a female programmer, I feel uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable about what?
- The mention of "boob job"?
Breast enhancements exist.
- The term "boob job"?
A little casual research amongst my wife. my 3 sisters, and 5 nieces ranging in age from 17 to 64 elicits that they all refer to breast enhancements as "boob jobs".
- The idea that for some (men and women) breast enhancement can enhance the attractiveness of the recipient?
Self explanatory.
- The idea that it doesn't work the same for everybody or every body.
Viva la Difference.
I find your construed objection to the cartoon, unrealistic.
With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
RIP Neil Armstrong boob jobs |
Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
by Ovid (Cardinal) on Aug 29, 2012 at 10:50 UTC
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I still remember the time I had a presentation with some content that I thought was funny, but just to make sure, I asked several female friends, all of whom thought it was OK. I still received some rather negative feedback from women I had never heard of. Surprise! It turns out that the people I know are, well, people that I know and we're more likely to understand where one is coming from.
What I, and all of my female friends, missed, was the issue of context. Just because there's a joke I can tell in front of my friends doesn't mean that it's appropriate for for a large, anonymous audience. They don't know who I am, they don't know what I think, and it's quite reasonable that someone may be offended by a "let's judge Demi Moore by the size of her breasts" cartoon.
I honestly don't understand why more people don't get this idea: public and private behavior are not the same and should not be the same. I have a friend in the UK who greets me by saying "hiya c*nt". There's a private joke behind that, but he would never dream of greeting me like that in front of a bunch of people he doesn't know because it's not appropriate.
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Hi XXXXXX,
I looked at the cartoon, and did not find it particularly offensive. I
+ did
not find it particularly funny either. I looked at it with my husband
+who
works in IT, and he did not really find it funny either.
I agree with you that the cartoon is more about men's innate sexist jo
+kes,
rather than being sexist itself. But I am sure that there would be som
+e
women who would feel otherwise, and would feel that the cartoon is jus
+t one
of many examples of the objectification of women.
best wishes,
Nadje
On 29 August 2012 11:33, <XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXXXXX.net> wrote:
> Hi XXXXXXXXX,
>
> This is a kind of off the wall request.
>
> I wonder if you would consider looking at a cartoon:
>
> <redacted>
>
> And briefly offering your opinion on whether it is offensive to wome
+n?
>
> This come about from an on-line discussion amongst (mostly) male
> programmers, some of whom think it might be.
>
> My personal conclusion -- white anglo-saxon male atheist 30 years ma
+rried
> to a muslim women -- is that it is not offensive to women, but rathe
+r makes
> men's innate, stereotypical reactions the butt of the joke.
>
> But I would like a second opinion.
>
> Many thanks for your time, regardless of your decision,
>
> XXXXXXXXXXXXX
>
> Ps. for reference,
> Perl is a computer programming language;
> Moose is a new, popular, but very heavyweight add-on library for
+that language.
> Mouse is another add-on library providing similar functionality,
+but in a much lighter form.
>
--
Nadje XXXXXX
Professor of Gender Studies
http://www.XXXXX.ac.uk/genderstudies/
XXXX UCU Equality & Diversity Officer
XXXX, University of XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX Street, XXXXXX XXXXXX
XXXXXX XXXH 0XG, UK
Tel. (44) (0) XXXXXXXX 4547
Room XXXA
Why ask? Because I find her opinion more authoritative than that of the ghosts out of the woodwork.
What do I draw from her reply?
That even when men are trying to do the right thing and be sensitive to women, they often still do the wrong thing for the right reasons. Like shouting at a deaf man, or trying guide a blind man by grabbing his arm, their attempts to 'fix things' are often worse than what they are trying to fix.
Like the Heath&Safety-gone-mad of an archaeologist being forced to wear a fluorescent jacket, hardhat and goggles whilst using a trowel in a 6 inch deep scrape in the middle of an open field on a sunny day; overzealousness in trying to "be sensitive" to women is just as counter productive.
It engenders groans and apathy and worse, due to the overload of "do nots" and "must nots" and "Shhh! There's a girl coming in", which completely detract from the less frequent but far more serious issues & matters that *need* to be dealt with.
They are often at the same time, patronising, futile and unnecessary.
Think about the issues, talk about the issues, make it possible and desirable for women to point the issues out and suggest how to correct them, but don't overreact and don't do the "male thing" and try to 'fix' everything. Listen first, and tackle the big things in consultation with women. With luck, the rest will sort itself.
With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
RIP Neil Armstrong | [reply]
[d/l] |
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Because I find her opinion more authoritative than that of the ghosts out of the woodwork.
If you want to do the right thing and not patronize people, you could start by not immediately dismissing what they have to say.
A member of this very forum said "Hey, I felt uncomfortable." Three times.
Something you posted caused that reaction in a member of this forum, sufficient that she posted about it twice in this thread and even wrote a separate blog post about it elsewhere.
Rather than take her at her word, you asked someone outside of this community—outside of the context of this community and outside of the audience of what you posted—for a reaction, and you're willing to dismiss what a member of this community and the target audience of what you posted because someone else gave you an answer you like better.
My favorite part is where you write "ghosts out of the woodwork", as if people don't really feel uncomfortable. Are we to believe that they were just waiting in hiding to pounce on you for anything you do that might possibly give then an opening? Do they not have feelings of their own?
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That even when men are trying to do the right thing and be sensitive to women, they often still do the wrong thing for the right reasons.
I think this thread is not an example for patronizing. There might be women who don't like to be subjects to those discussions, and I would prefer to not be either. Maybe sometime it's not necessary any more?
Like shouting at a deaf man, or trying guide a blind man by grabbing his arm, their attempts to 'fix things' are often worse than what they are trying to fix.
yeah, you could ask before grabbing his arm, and it might be annoying if it happens often, but it's still showing a good will and is better than running in the blind man's way. And I don't read anything comparable to grabbing one man's arm here. Maybe you can ask one of your experts if pemungkah did "the wrong thing" in their eyes?
which completely detract from the less frequent but far more serious issues & matters that *need* to be dealt with.
oh yeah, we should do something about the global warming. eat less meat - very easy and it works for me! (SCNR)
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I believe that oversensitivity to gender issues is as, if not more, offensive -- patronising -- to women, than the lack of sensitivity. I also think that men are the butt of the joke in that cartoon.
But, in an attempt to settle the matter, I have sent the following email to 3 different Professors of Women's Studies to elicit an authoritative opinion. One has auto-reponded saying she is out until the September, 16th. Nothing yet from the others.
I'm suspending my further interactions on this subject until I get something to report.
Hi [...],
This is a kind of off-the-wall request.
I've picked you out from an internet search for:
"professor of women's studies university"
I wonder if you would consider looking at a cartoon:
<redacted>
And briefly offering your opinion on whether it is offensive to women?
This comes about from an on-line discussion amongst (mostly) male prog
+rammers, some of whom think it might be.
My personal conclusion -- white anglo-saxon male atheist 30 years marr
+ied to a muslim women -- is that it is not offensive to women, but ra
+ther makes men's innate, stereotypical reactions, the butt of the jok
+e.
But I would like a second opinion.
Many thanks for your time, regardless of your decision,
[...]
Ps. for reference:
Perl is a computer programming language;
Moose is a new, hyped, but very heavyweight add-on library for tha
+t language.
Mouse is another add-on library providing similar functionality, b
+ut in a much lighter form.
With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
RIP Neil Armstrong
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[d/l] |
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I conducted my own survey, and here's what I found (**):
- Wolowitz thought it was hilarious.
- Sheldon, as intelligent as he is, didn't get it.
- Leonard couldn't decide if it was funny or not, but said he would have at least had the good sense to not post it publicly.
- Raj had absolutely nothing to say about it (but that may have been because Penny was in the room).
- Penny thought it had something to do with Star Trek.
I'm still waiting to hear from Amy and Bernadette.
(**) I didn't really ask them. If you wanted to know what they really thought about it, you would probably have to ask Chuck.
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I believe that oversensitivity to gender issues is as, if not more, offensive – patronising – to women, than the lack of sensitivity.
Honestly? Try the same thing with s/gender/racial/ and s/women/blacks/. Maybe that will give you an idea of how you are sounding right about now.
I also think that men are the butt of the joke in that cartoon.
On a meta level they are, but how does that make it any less creepy?
But, in an attempt to settle the matter, I have sent the following email to 3 different Professors of Women's Studies to elicit an authoritative opinion.
And if three authorities say X, what does that change? Or seventeen of them for that matter. Does the strip get any less creepy if they said it ain’t so? This is a matter of developing some empathy, which is about as far removed from what appeals to authority can accomplish as I can imagine.
Makeshifts last the longest.
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I have a friend in the UK who greets me by saying "hiya cunt". There's a private joke behind that, but he would never dream of greeting me like that in front of a bunch of people he doesn't know because it's not appropriate. Magic, what a wonderful greeting must be great fun to be with and probably very dangerous.
Must be a Geordie!
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I regularly make jokes at home and get things thrown at me. In public and especially on the internet, people can't throw things at you, so you should really have more consideration about what you say because it's just not fair to others.
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For the record:
- A very high proportion of women would find, regardless of context, your posting of the fully alliterated c-word far, far more offensive than the indirectly linked cartoon you popped up to decry.
- Advocating that "its okay to be sexist in private, just don't do it in front of the gals" is absolutely the worst possible response to the problem.
With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
RIP Neil Armstrong
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Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
by tinita (Parson) on Aug 29, 2012 at 11:56 UTC
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let me tell you something. in my experience, if women start a discussion about something they feel uncomfortable or are offended, they are called feminist fanatists or something like that. yes, that happens. women get harrassed by phone and email after such discussions. yes, that happens (fortunately not to me yet, but to a friend).
it is not easy for the minority of women to speak up here, also because of such reasons. believe it or not. people are harrassed because they are women, gay, handicapped or whatever.
now a guy speaks up, and he doesn't even take the right to speak for all women, he just says what he thinks he would feel. and suddenly all hell breaks loose. WTF?
Now I add a comment that I in fact feel uncomfortable. and what happens? nothing. you don't care. and for Jenda I'm the one closed minded women.
So women can't speak up easily, because they are afraid of being called fanatists. and men can't speak up for women either. great!
I now do speak up. I just don't want to see or hear such pubertal jokes here, and it's now up to you to call me fanatist, closed minded or whatever. | [reply] |
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the main point i'm annoyed by is not so much the cartoon itself. it doesn't matter who is "the butt of the joke" so much. it's just, please don't sexualize programming and keep such jokes where they belong to. it's not about lynching a guy for posting such a link. like Ovid said, things like that can happen.
what i'm mostly disappointed about is the reactions: pemungkah suggests that women might not like it to see such jokes here, and posts a link to a very nice keynote, and that he is critised heavily for doing that.
telling me that I just didn't understand the joke right really doesn't help.
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Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
by davorg (Chancellor) on Aug 29, 2012 at 09:14 UTC
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Do you think that women are lying when they say that they are driven away from geek communities because of lame frat-boy humour like this? Or do you not care that this might be the case?
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I *know* -- because I've been told so many times by people I trust -- that I am more sensitive to matters of gender, race and religion than most.
I *know* that none of the women in my circle of family and friends found anything in *that particular cartoon* in any way offensive or derogatory. Because I asked.
And I conclude that most any offense taken from *that particular cartoon* is artificial and derivative.
Not all; some are offended by the sight of a women's hair or arms; some by kissing in public; some by pencil lines on paper; some by certain combinations of letters, regardless of context. But in general, there is nothing in that cartoon; neither the images, nor the words, nor the underlying ideas, nor the intent, that is offensive to most women.
Indeed, with just a little thought and suspension of knee-jerkism, it is easy to see that it is the very male stereotyping of what constitutes the "ideal women", that you are trying to allude to, that is the butt of the joke.
With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
RIP Neil Armstrong
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I *know* -- because I've been told so many times by people I trust -- that I am more sensitive to matters of gender, race and religion than most. It's interesting that people have repeatedly said this to you. I *know* that none of the women in my circle of family and friends found anything in *that particular cartoon* in any way offensive or derogatory. Because I asked. Did you really ask a lot of women about this? Can you describe the conversations you had? And I conclude that most any offense taken from *that particular cartoon* is artificial and derivative. So first one male says that females are offended by it and then another male says that females are not offended by it. I don't know who to believe! Not all; some are offended by the sight of a women's hair or arms; some by kissing in public; some by pencil lines on paper; some by certain combinations of letters, regardless of context. But in general, there is nothing in that cartoon; neither the images, nor the words, nor the underlying ideas, nor the intent, that is offensive to most women. Apart from all the women in your circle that you've told us about, I don't think there are a whole lot of women in the world who are really comfortable with "boob job" jokes. Indeed, with just a little thought and suspension of knee-jerkism, it is easy to see that it is the very male stereotyping of what constitutes the "ideal women", that you are trying to allude to, that is the butt of the joke. Yes, every one else is stupid except you.
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Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Aug 29, 2012 at 09:55 UTC
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Straw man much? Did he mention the term “boob job” at all?
It’s the strip’s implied “aw yeah Demi Moore, I get a boner when I think of her” (and more along those lines) that’s creepy – and I say this without even putting myself in the shoes of a woman reading the strip: even just as a man – dude, I don’t wanna know and I don’t want to be made a party to your fantasies without my consent. Keep it in your pants.
To a woman I can only imagine it would feel 10× worse.
None of that has anything to do with prudish objections to such as naughty language like tits or fucking.
Makeshifts last the longest.
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I don’t want to be made a party to your fantasies
If that's how you read that cartoon, you are outing your own thought processes, not mine.
Which makes you the butt of the joke.
With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
RIP Neil Armstrong
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