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I think I can confidently say that the thread veered off of the original topic largely because Perl doesn't have a good story to tell when it comes to notable women.

Why not? Well for a start I'd guess that there are 10-20 male Perl programmers for every female one. This is not to say that there are no women, but when you start with that many less, if all else is equal you'll have fewer all of the way up the ladder. So you have fewer virtualsues out there. And then you get even fewer when you get to ones who do a lot of open source work, like liz.

But it gets worse. If you look down a list of well known women in Perl, what are they known for? Well we have Allison Randal, who is known primarily for organizational work for The Perl Foundation. We have jarich, who is best known for her work helping organize Perl Monger groups and conferences. We have kudra who organized YAPC EU. These three are all good programmers, but you'll note that they are not known for their programming.

Let's continue on. We have women who are better known for their husbands than themselves (eg Elaine -HFB- Ashton and Vani Raja). We have Audrey Tang who was already well known before becoming a woman. I would guess that a significant number of Perl programmers would name Abigail if they were asked who the most prominent woman in Perl was. The number is less than it was a decade ago since there is more awareness that Abigail is a man. And so on.

The more you look, the more obvious it is that Perl doesn't have a community that winds up valuing women for their programming expertise. Why not?

Well let me give one reason. When I tally the male Perl programmers that I have worked with, I can immediately think of 3 whose behavior is offensive to any woman around. When I tally the female Perl programmers that I have personally worked with I can only come up with one. And she was a junior programmer who I was training. That isn't great for women who want to stay in Perl. And that isn't exactly a great ratio of bad apples to decent role-models.

That isn't to say that there is no hope. There are well-known and respected women in Perl. Judging by your Perlmonks contributions, I'd say that you're likely going to become one of that number. There are people who care. Things do change over time.

Moving on, I'd like to make a comment about your grandmother's reasoning. While things have improved since the 1930s (at which time there was a significant backlash against the first women's movement), her comments still have justice. Success and dating have become like height and dating - most people (male or female) would prefer to be in a couple where the man has at least as much of it as the woman. (There obviously are exceptions, but as a general rule...) Which means that successful (or tall) women are competing with a large pool of women for a small pool of men. As a result I've known a number of women who are successful and attractive, but are having trouble finding a guy. While many don't want kids, some really do and I feel sad for them.

But things do get better. My impression is that today most people are willing to consider an equal relationship. Not very long ago most men would only date women they felt superior to. (And that was really not long ago. In a class my wife was in back in the 80s the professor did a poll of this. Most of the women wanted a man of equal or greater intelligence. But 70% of the men would only consider dating less intelligent women!)


In reply to Re^3: Women in Perl - Ada Lovelace Day by tilly
in thread Women in Perl - Ada Lovelace Day by Anonymous Monk

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