Re^5: Modernizing the Postmodern Language?

It is not just that internals are accessed through macros and global variables, it is that the current data structures are open.

For instance, the way perl scalars are represented internally (SV) is open. You can access the structure from XS, change it, get pointers to its slots, whatever. There is no reasonable way you could provide an API emulating that on top of a substantially different guts.

Also, any proposed solution needs to be simple, reliable and portable.

Regarding, efficiency, in many cases, efficiency is just being able to access the raw data without it passing through intermediate layers. Take for instance my module Sort::Key::Radix. Besides the algorithm, one of the reasons why it is so fast is because it manipulates directly the perl data structures. There isn't a conversion from Perl to some agnostic format when any of its subs is called or when returning from it.

Comment on Re^5: Modernizing the Postmodern Language?

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Re^6: Modernizing the Postmodern Language? by bliako (Abbot) on Jul 03, 2020 at 13:18 UTC
I agree that data translations will be costly. But nothing stops using raw memory pointers typecasted (i.e. interpreted) to the appropriate data structure. In plain C that would be akeen to typecasting raw memory/void to a struct. In OOP, an SV could be any class implementing the SV interface with, say, `slot(name, value)`. Since all these will be part of the same process, it wont be necessary to use shared memory etc. It's true that any XS code using `SV sv; sv.IV = 42;` will break (is this the sort of tricks you mentioned doing?). But, perlguts's doc shows that the proper way is to use `sv_setiv(&sv, 42)` i.e. a setter macro/function which it is very easy for the suggested intermediate layer to hijack transparently. But perhaps it all leads to re-inventing a virtual machine, which you mentioned. PS. I respond to this thread, and I am sorry if I waste your time with possible nonsense, as a means of throwing ideas/brain storming. I consider it fundamental that the "modernisation" process starts from the guts. Or equal attention be given to the guts too. And having a data-exchange framework as a when-all-else-fails option for the API when dealing with different Perl versions but also for when accessing external libraries with Platypus and also when accessing external environments (like R) and their native data structures (like R's data.frame) would be great and future-proof and make Perl a true polyglot. refs: Parrot Overview and SO thread https://stackoverflow.com/questions/118141/what-exactly-is-parrot	[reply] [d/l] [select]

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Re^6: Modernizing the Postmodern Language?
by bliako (Abbot) on Jul 03, 2020 at 13:18 UTC

I agree that data translations will be costly. But nothing stops using raw memory pointers typecasted (i.e. interpreted) to the appropriate data structure. In plain C that would be akeen to typecasting raw memory/void to a struct. In OOP, an SV could be any class implementing the SV interface with, say, slot(name, value). Since all these will be part of the same process, it wont be necessary to use shared memory etc.

It's true that any XS code using SV sv; sv.IV = 42; will break (is this the sort of tricks you mentioned doing?). But, perlguts's doc shows that the proper way is to use sv_setiv(&sv, 42) i.e. a setter macro/function which it is very easy for the suggested intermediate layer to hijack transparently. But perhaps it all leads to re-inventing a virtual machine, which you mentioned.

PS. I respond to this thread, and I am sorry if I waste your time with possible nonsense, as a means of throwing ideas/brain storming. I consider it fundamental that the "modernisation" process starts from the guts. Or equal attention be given to the guts too. And having a data-exchange framework as a when-all-else-fails option for the API when dealing with different Perl versions but also for when accessing external libraries with Platypus and also when accessing external environments (like R) and their native data structures (like R's data.frame) would be great and future-proof and make Perl a true polyglot.

refs: Parrot Overview and SO thread https://stackoverflow.com/questions/118141/what-exactly-is-parrot

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