I work at what people would call a 'high-tech' company. I guess you can call me relatively still fresh out of school. This is my first real job, and I have been working here for a year and half.

As such, I've always considered myself being at the bottom of the engineer totem-pole. I recognized that there are many,many,many people out there whose knowledge and skills far exceeds my understanding. So I tried ( or so I think ) my best in terms of gaining new knowledge and skills, step by step. I'm a newbie, whatelse can I do, right?

Namely, I've read books and manuals daily ( and on the way dicovered that once you get used to it, man, perldoc, and RFCs actually tell you most everything you need to know ), read posts at programmer communities such as this, and just tried to experiments with things that I've never done before.

When I would get stuck, I went as far as I could by myself trying to solve the problem, and tried to come up with the most concise question possible.

That's probably a bit of overstatement ( since I know how lazy I am :-), but I think in general I've been faithful to my goal, and within the last year, I took a huge leap in terms of my acquired skills/knowledge. A year ago I didn't know jack about unix programming in general, perl, database, sysadmin, cgi, a bunch of protocols, etc. I now use these things daily, and I am proud that I invested on books and such, and took the time to understand these issues.

So the real question: Is it wrong to expect this to my fellow engineer co-workers?

Most of my co-workers are just incredibly smart people -- I can't believe that they are actually made of organic material, because their knowledge is so vast, and their thinking fast.

But on the other hand it really bothers me that some people don't take the time to really try to learn. I have a hard time understanding, as engineers, that one could go without wanting to know more, to be able to materialize those things that you wish were automated/simpler to use.

This post just came up because I was trying to help somebody with his perl programming. He was new to perl, but it seemed like he was new to programming after all. But I expected him to come to me with intelligent questions if I made clear that I was available for help. After all, he's an engineer, right? Unfortunately, no such luck. He never once came to me with a question other than "this doesn't work". You know how people sometimes ask questions in SOPW, and they only say "my script doesn't work"? That type of question. No details, no nothing.

And now after about 3 weeks, I took over his work. Well, at least the programming portion of it. It's been 2 days, and I already have prototypes done ( I'm not bragging -- it is a simple task ). I think he wrote maybe 10 lines of code total during that 3 weeks. Oh wait, it could have been 5 lines of code and 5 lines of comments, but who cares...

So, is this type of thing common at work places? Are my expectations too high? I'd like to know what the seasoned programmers around expect out of their co-workers. Would it be better if I just accept them as they are, shut up and get on with it?

Anyways, sorry if this was sort of off topic. I just needed to rant badly

  • Comment on How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Sep 21, 2001 at 02:09 UTC
    Before my current job as a consultant, I worked for a telecommunications firm (who shall rename nameless). I worked in a testing division chock full of engineers. Not just engineers, but engineers with Masters degrees and lots of yearsin the field. I joined the company not knowing anything about wireless communications, or communications in general (other than typing 'telnet aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd' worked).

    The material wasn't that difficult to pick up ... there was just a lot of it. So, I took my time and in about three months, I'd gotten a decent handle on it - enough to be able to ask intelligent questions.

    Within 6 months, I, a non-engineer, was being asked engineering questions by these guys with Masters degrees.

    In short, stupid and/or lazy people are everywhere. And, if you're wondering what to do about them ... don't do their job for them - get them fired. Expose their stupidity and hope the next guy has two brain cells s/he can rub together.

    ------
    We are the carpenters and bricklayers of the Information Age.

    Don't go borrowing trouble. For programmers, this means Worry only about what you need to implement.

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(jeffa) Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by jeffa (Bishop) on Sep 21, 2001 at 04:39 UTC
    i find this very type of thing common at certain types of workplaces, generally, the larger the operation, the more likely there will be 'zombies'.

    You know them, you've seen them - they just sit in their cubicles and do . . . WTF do they do? How did they get that job? How are they KEEPING their job?!?

    My goal is to avoid places like that, but this limits me incredibly. i will only take a job at such a place as a last resort. So far so good . . . . i consider myself very fortunate to have co-workers like i do now, but i have also strived for it.

    Surround yourself with people smarter and better then you, then you will improve - surround yourself with zombies, and watch your brain atrophy. You sound like you know what you are doing - keep learning and doing and you will go far! :)

    jeffa

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by blakem (Monsignor) on Sep 21, 2001 at 02:25 UTC
    In case you didn't know, Scott Adams got much of his inspiration for Dilbert while working at Pacific Bell. Just because its a technology company doesn't mean the workers are inspired and excited about learning work-related skills.

    -Blake

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by toma (Vicar) on Sep 21, 2001 at 08:56 UTC
    Ten lines of code in three weeks is generally not acceptable, of course. It happens when someone gets a job that is not appropriate for his or her skills. With your level of interest and achievement in your work, you will likely be recognized as an expert in your field in five or ten years. Then you will have an even harder question, "How do I cash in?"

    At this point in your career you are noticing that you may become a top contributor. I sense that you may be wondering, "I've been working with a poor performer who has a bunch of experience. How will I differentiate myself from people like this? Who will get the bigger raise? What if I'm on a project, and I'm counting on someone like this for a critical component? Will we just fail or will I have to just do all the work?"

    Management books are about this sort of thing. You might want to read a few. The Mythical Man Month is a good place to start.

    It is quite a thrill to learn a whole new big technical topic like unix and perl, as you mentioned. I recommend that you supplement your technical learning in two ways:

    First, choose a technical area that interests, you, and keep up with it. Pursue this technology for your personal enjoyment. Choose a new technology to study whenever it pleases you. This is rewarding in so many ways!

    Second, read a few management books. Read the ones the managers in your area are reading, even if the books or the managers are insipid. There are many books about management, but most have only enough content for a magazine article. If you want more information density, read the magazine "Harvard Business Review." It is expensive, so you might want to just read it while 'shopping' and sipping caffeinated beverages in your local big-chain bookstore.

    /msg me if you want fewer or more OT management/office politics discussion.
    It should work perfectly the first time! - toma

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by Chrisf (Friar) on Sep 21, 2001 at 10:18 UTC

    There's no question that the best employees are the ones that are actually interested in their job and enjoy learning as much as possible. They'll understand new technology faster, pay more attention to perfecting their projects, help out other employees, and contribute to a better work environment.

    I think negative situations like the one you described occur because of two main reasons:

    1. The company hires people based on just credentials and doesn't look close enough to see if they're really interested in the given field. It is of course hard to measure this sort of thing, but can be done (involvement in a community like perl monks is a dead giveaway ;-)
    2. The work environment is boring and doesn't encourage any innovation. For example, if your supervisor criticizes you for writing a (perl) script to do a simple task, claiming it's inefficient.

    Rather than hire the person with the most pieces of paper, it is far better to hire people who are easy to work with and enjoy the job, even if you have to spend some extra time/money training them.

    Just my 2 cents

    /me waits for some of those rare phd. downvotes :p

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by lestrrat (Deacon) on Sep 21, 2001 at 10:42 UTC

    Thanks everybody for your input. I won't respond to your posts at this point, since I'd like to think about your replies before making an attempt to come to some sort of conclusion myself :-)

    But in the meantime, there are few things I would like to point out about my environment, so that you can give me advises based on ( relatively ) accurate information

    • Make no mistake, I love where I work. As I said, most everybody at my company is so smart I doubt that they are of the same biological composition as I am, and no, my boss is not pointy-haired :-)
    • The stuff that we make is definitely exciting! I'm pretty darn proud about the product that I help to make.
    • The person in question is relatively new as well. The lack of knowledge is understandable, but I just can't understand the defeated atitude!

    So no, I'm not fed up with my employer or the environment ( just yet ), but I'm just wondering what I should do / how I should deal with the small number of people like the one I described above

    Also I was wondering if I was being too self-righteous, senstive, or just plain naive. I wanted a balanced opinion, you know?

    Anyway, I will check back tomorrow. Thanks for taking your time to read this post, everybody

[reply]
      I think that pretty much anyone you talk to will have had some sort of experience with people like this in the workplace. The important thing I think is to be able to distinguish between a few key characteristics in the unmotivated, mal-performing coworker.

      1. They may be trying really hard on their own and just can't get anywhere at all with it. Being in an environment with so many brilliant coworkers, it can be extremely uncomfortable to let anyone know that you're struggling with something. Having an experienced and somewhat idyllic senior engineer volunteer their time to help can be a big step in opening that person up to a whole world of knowledge that seemed unreachable before.

      2. They may not be interested in the particular project that they have been assigned. Although it's not much of an excuse for not working, a lack of motivation and excitement in your job can really give a bad impression to everyone around you. Perhaps the person simply needs to be redirected to something they can throw themselves into and really make a difference.

      3. They may just not give 2 shits. At that point, there's nothing left but either confront the person (especially if you're relying on their performance in any way) or bring it to the attention of the supervisor.

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by shotgunefx (Parson) on Sep 21, 2001 at 11:16 UTC
    print <<RANT;

    I've met CTO's who wouldn't know a WAN from a wang. It's amazing how far inept people can go. Honestly, I truly believe that you only have to know slightly more than others to get ahead. Average management doesn't know what the hell is going on, so if you know just a little bit more, who are they to tell you different?

    Look at someone like razorfish, why does it take 8 MILLION to make an underwear site? (Joe Boxer) They never even got it done! It should have been 10 people tops on the tech side. I think it's like monkeys writing Shakespear. The thing that always irked me most is that I could code circles around some of these guys for things I barely knew and they made 3x the money. Oh well.

    RANT

    -Lee

    "To be civilized is to deny one's nature."

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Re: How much are you supposed to expect out of your co-workers?
by shadox (Priest) on Sep 21, 2001 at 21:36 UTC
    Yes thats is common, more than you can imagine.
    I understand what you're talking about, because thats something that i live everyday, usualy in a group there're people who read, research, do things, learn everyday and other just do their work, not more.
    The best would be to continue the way you are, and as you say, "accept them as they are".
    You're climbing a leader to success , and they are just looking as you do it.
    Just continue as you are doing
    Dreams they just disapear into the shadows,
    then they become true....
[reply]
10 lines!
by perrin (Chancellor) on Sep 21, 2001 at 18:46 UTC
    Ten lines of Perl? That could be an operating system!
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