Re: (OT) Meditate on this brain-teaser
by VSarkiss (Monsignor) on Dec 12, 2001 at 09:17 UTC
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Actually, this is a well-known conundrum. The best exposition I know is by Martin Gardner, chapter 10 in Penrose Tiles to Trapdoor Ciphers. It originally appeared as a Mathematical Games column in the early 80's, I believe. (No, I'm not that old, it's just your imagination.) It brings up some very interesting problems in mathematical induction, upon which your solution is based.
Try this on for size: your solution works even if C is totally blind! Read MG for the whole scoop.
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There ain't no such thing as surprise tests then
by tilly (Archbishop) on Dec 13, 2001 at 14:00 UTC
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In a course, the teacher stands up and says that there
will be a surprise test before the end of the year. But
this is impossible! For look. If the test was given on
the last day of class, would anybody be surprised? Why
of course not, they know it has to come, and they know
there is no other day possible. So it cannot come on the
last day. But then on the second to last day, what then?
Why they know it cannot be on the last day, and so does
the teacher, so it must be today! Where is the surprise?
And so it goes back to the first day. It is impossible for
the teacher to give a surprise test to this logical group
of people.
Yet teachers announce surprise tests, and surprise their
students.
I leave you to reflect on the difference between knowledge
and meta-knowledge. As I do so, I mention in passing that
there is a world of difference between saying, I prove
this! and saying, I prove that I can prove this!
In fact this distinction is critical. Were it not so,
then mathematics would run afoul of Gödel's theorem.
Catch me another day and I may explain how this ties in with
the existence of a finite number - trivially proven to be
finite - but about which you cannot prove that any number
explicitly written out in base 10 can ever be proven to
be larger than this one in any consistent axiom system
comprehensible by humans. But you wouldn't want that.
It might tempt you into studying mathematics, which is a
profession that will make you far less money than computers
can...
(BTW one such number is
busy
beaver of 50 million. It is a finite number which we can
find no explicit upper bounds for.) | [reply] |
Re: (OT) Meditate on this brain-teaser
by hawson (Monk) on Dec 12, 2001 at 11:15 UTC
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This very puzzle (an many varients thereof) was the subject
of a book called
Anno's Hat Tricks, by Mr. Mitsumasa Anno. Somewhere I
think I have my old copy.
Mitsumasa Anno also wrote a number
of simply wonderful books that I grew up with. Especially
Anno's Journey. There are no words in this book, but that makes it all better. If you have kids, get these books for them; if you don't, get them for yourself.
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Re: (OT) Meditate on this brain-teaser
by runrig (Abbot) on Dec 12, 2001 at 07:36 UTC
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Here is a spoiler link. And the site looks like a pretty cool puzzle site, with an unsolved puzzle link and discussion forum on the home page :-) | [reply] |
Re: (OT) Meditate on this brain-teaser
by Anonymous Monk on Dec 12, 2001 at 13:26 UTC
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This is a (fairly simple) example of a class of problems that motivated this CS paper, and a whole range of research that has followed it in the last 10 years or so. The "Muddy Children" problem in section 2 of the paper is really quite impressive, IMHO. | [reply] |
Re: (OT) Meditate on this brain-teaser
by tachyon (Chancellor) on Dec 12, 2001 at 17:20 UTC
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Actually there is no rational solution to the problem as stated. Given that all we can be
sure of is that there must be one blue hat amongst the three
the only way to know that one's own hat is blue is to see that
both the other two participants are wearing white hats. None of the
three participants are in this position. One sees two blue hats, the other two see one blue hat
plus whatever color hat the participant who sees the two blue hats sees. All see
at least one blue hat.
It is immaterial as to whether the participant who announces his answer is wearing a
blue or a white hat. It could be either, he can not know and is simply taking a 50:50 punt.
Consider the two possible hat colors for our punter. If it is blue then all the participants
are in the same position. They all see two blue hats. There is no logical differentiation between
any of them. If on the other hand our punter wears a white hat the views are W-B B-W B-B This is
still not of any help at all. Only seeing W-W is conclusive.
cheers
tachyon
s&&rsenoyhcatreve&&&s&n.+t&"$'$`$\"$\&"&ee&&y&srve&&d&&print
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The point isn't in what someone sees, the point is in what someone doesn't see. C knows that his hat is either white or blue. Now, let's say that C's hat is white. That means that A sees a white and a blue (because we know B's hat is blue). A can't make any decisions, for the very reason you stated.
So, let's see what B thinks. (Remember, C's hat is white at this moment, and that A didn't do anything.) Since A didn't do anything, B knows his hat cannot be white. (If B's hat was white and C's hat was white, A would say his hat is blue.) So, B knows that his hat must be blue.
But, B doesn't do anything, either. So, since A didn't stand up and B didn't stand up, then C must be able to stand up because his hat isn't white.
Does that make sense?
------ We are the carpenters and bricklayers of the Information Age. Don't go borrowing trouble. For programmers, this means Worry only about what you need to implement.
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Tut, tut Dragonchild,
There are a lot of assumptions being made here: That the players are rational thinkers and intelligent enough to realise this kind of strategy etc... I just find these problems incredibly annoying because I'm not very good at them and people who get the answer right tend to do so not because of induction but more because they've seen it before! It rather reminds me of a physics joke I once heard.
A horseracing fan wins a million dollars/pound/shekels in the lottery and decides to invest it in an interesting proposition: He will find out how to predict the winner of a horserace with 95% accuracy based on the build, weight and past form of a horse. To do this he goes to a racehorse trainer, a molecular biologist and a theoretical physicist: He gives them each $10000 just for working for one year and promises the winner $250,000 more if they win.
After the year is up he returns to each. The horse trainer is pleased to report than he can get it right 75% of the time and the fan is impressed, but his heart heavy he wanders on. The molecular biologist is delighted to report that he got to 80% but progressed no further. Eventually the fan comes to the physicist, who replies, "Yes, I can predict which horse will win any race with 99.5% probability of success with one minor catch."
Needless to say, the racing fan is impressed and offers the physicist the prize money in return for the analysis, however the physicist being an honest man says he must tell him the catch first:"It must be a spherical horse running in a vacuum!"
"A nerd is someone who knows the difference between a compiled and an interpreted language, whereas a geek is a person who can explain it cogently over a couple of beers"
- Elgon
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Consider how different the puzzle would be if a correct
guess spared only the guessers' head, an incorrect guess
doomed them all and there was a time limit (which if not
met, doomed them all as well). Now it's more like a game of
chicken which will end with a 50-50 chance of three heads
rolling.
--Jim
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Ummh. No. As stated a player can only be sure of their hat color if they see two white hats as the only stated condition is at least one blue hat. All players see at least one blue hat. None of the players see two whites. They are all in the position of seeing at least one potentially lethal blue hat.
In fact A and B are identical in all respects. They are better denoted A and A'. They both see B-X where X is C's hat color. C sees B-B. No one sees the required W-W combination. There is no logical solution. The lack of response on all player's behalfs is logical. C is a punter
cheers
tachyon
s&&rsenoyhcatreve&&&s&n.+t&"$'$`$\"$\&"&ee&&y&srve&&d&&print
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