I suppose this probably has been up for discussion before, but I couldn't find it via Super Search, so here goes anyways. If I just searched for the wrong words/criteria, I apologize.

This is probably silly, but I sometimes, (not often, not seldom), want to see the reputation of a node without voting for it. This is usually the case when I am curious about what people thought about it, but don't personally think it is worth a ++ or --. It still might be worth a vote though. That still might be because I don't understand an answer fully, for example, or maybe I think it is an ok node, but not good enough. Still I might be curious what others thought.

Hmm. Yep. It is silly. I probably take one single vote this or that way waay too seriously, but well, they do add up. Maybe we'd get a better, true representation of what people think with this? Maybe not? Anyhow, I thought I'd come up with a suggestion or two, for my fellow monks to 'Aye' or 'Nay' - either for good reasons, I hope. :)

Suggestion 1: Introduce a "blank" vote. There are two ways I see this happening, both have their merits.

Suggestion 2: Introduce a possibility to show how many votes were cast on a specific node. Something simple such as

Reputation: 60 / 78

would be enough. This probably only would be interesting if the suggestion above was introduced, but I have had one or two nodes that has really gone rollercoaster with a heavy war between up and downvotes... it would have been kind of funny to see exactly how many votes were cast to reach the final reputation. Another system could be to do something like Nodes To Consider, where you, after casting the vote, get a separate count for each.

Both the above suggestions should probably be "off" by default, and possible to enable in User Settings.

Are there any good reasons (I'm sure there is) not to have these possibilities, other than that the gods have better things to do? Which is a good reason in itself, I guess *grin*. I would appreciate it, personally. Are there any others that would like these options, or am I alone? Which would be another great reason... hehe. :) All in all it is not a biggie, just possibly one of the small touches that makes a place a little more special and userfriendly(?).

Anyhow, let me know what you think. Thanks!

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Blank votes, and total vote count display.
by simon.proctor (Vicar) on Apr 10, 2002 at 09:23 UTC
    Personally I don't like this. My opinion is that it encourages you to care too much about rep and xp rather than the contents of the node. Either you like the contents or you don't. If you like them then ++, if not then either don't vote, vote a -- (if you really don't like it), post a reply, msg the author or any combination. Or you could just ignore it.

    Consider the following. You read a thread and you liked it, mostly. There were some good points, some bad but the overall thread encouraged you to learn something. So you would vote various nodes in that thread with a ++. Then you read another and someone says something you really don't like. Theres a bit of a flame war so you msg one or two people and -- a few nodes.

    Under what situation are you going to say to yourself, I like that node but I don't think the author deserves a ++ from me. I just want to see what they have and not reward the author for the thought they have provided. I just want to see what other people think and not express my own opinion.

    I can't see it myself :).

    Update Just to say that I gave you a ++, even though I disagree with you. I think that reinforces my point.
[reply]
      I hear you. I also confess to not being totally sure what I want myself, and wanted to hear others peoples opinions on this matter.

      However, I can easily see myself in that situation, although not often. The situation might be this: I do not know how to value this post. I wonder if others thought it was any good? I think I can take that as some kind of measure, although I definetely agree that sucky nodes get good rep sometimes, and likewise great nodes get none. But for the most part, nodes probably get what they deserve - if they didn't, why don't we just scratch the whole system - or at least stop displaying the rep even after a vote? I mean, I know what I think... why should I need someone else's opinion?

      Don't take me too seriously here, I am just trying to explain why I got the thought at all. I am willing to be convinced it is a bad idea, if it is indeed a bad idea... if so, at least we have decided that it is. *Grin* That might be worth wasting nodespace on by itself... :)

      Disagreement is good - without it there would be no new ideas or development at all. :)

      You have moved into a dark place.
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
[reply]
Re: Blank votes, and total vote count display.
by mrbbking (Hermit) on Apr 10, 2002 at 13:12 UTC
    Early on, I wanted something like that, too - so I could more easily find 'good' nodes to read, and skip over the 'bad' ones. Now that I'm accustomed to not having it, I'm glad it's not there.

    Why? Because I frequently disagree that a node with a greater reputation is 'better' than another. 'Reputation' != 'quality' && 'Reputation' != 'usefulness'. (Just like 'XP' != 'Perl knowledge'). Some nodes get upvoted just because they're funny (and that's just fine, I think). Nodes with lots of code are notoriously overlooked for upvotes, because they require thought and analysis before a voter can decide if they're worthy. But these are some of the best nodes you'll find around here. Even if the code is lacking, you can learn from it.

    Seeing a node's reputation without voting on it yourself invites self-fulfilling prophecies. 'Good' nodes will only get 'better' and 'bad' ones will only get 'worse'. Having to decide for yourself before you see what others think helps keep the Monastery lively.

    I think I see where you're coming from, but I like that the reputation is hidden unless you've voted on (or written) it.

    I really do like your suggestion about showing total number of votes per node, though. There are probably lots of nodes with near-zero reputations after dozens of votes have canceled each other out. But I only want to see it *after* I've voted on it myself.
    <g>

[reply]
Re: Blank votes, and total vote count display.
by Biker (Priest) on Apr 10, 2002 at 15:46 UTC

    "Introduce a possibility to show how many votes were cast on a specific node."

    That I agree with. But only after I have voted myself, or if I'm the author. It would make sense to know the interest a node has created. A node with +4 looks as if noone cared (well almost), when in reality the node may have been given 100 minus votes and 104 plus votes. I.e. a lot of interest. This would be very informative if nothing else so for the author of the node. "I wrote a node and people cared (or not)"

    I'm not part of the Monastery developers, but I would be surpriced if this information is stored in the database. I guess that only the net 'reputation' is stored. Which would make it impossible to show the 'activity' on historical data.

    Everything went worng, just as foreseen.

[reply]
      Agreed. For me the volatility of a node is just as interesting as its rep. I would love to know how many people voted -- on something that somebody wrote. 
      ()-()
 \"/
  `                                                   `
[reply]
      No, every vote cast is recorded. That way duplicate voting and or vote rigging is prevented.

      I like the idea of showing the total votes though.

      Yves / DeMerphq
      ---
      Writing a good benchmark isnt as easy as it might look.

[reply]

        I understand how this will avoid dupes, but how can it help to avoid vote rigging?

        Everything went worng, just as foreseen.

[reply]
      Well, I can only guess too. :)

      But the DB keeps track on which nodes I have voted on in one way or the other, so it shouldn't be impossible. The question is, is it stored on the node who has voted - easy and cheap query to count who has voted, or is it stored on the user where the votes have been cast - not as cheap a query (I wouldn't think at least). This query would need to be cheap, since it is potentially executed lots of times per rendered page.

      Of course, another approach would be to add a field to the DB now, and start with this system from now on. If people want it. :)

      You have moved into a dark place.
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
[reply]
Re: Blank votes, and total vote count display.
by vagnerr (Prior) on Apr 10, 2002 at 09:04 UTC
    There is a config option labeled "null vote" in your user config. It *might* be an implementation of your option 1 section 2 but I've only just gone a switched it on, So I guess I might find out when I get my vote allocation today.
    On the other hand it might be there as something that has been planned but not yet implemented :-)

    Update:
    Nope null vote just allows you to unset a vote if you change your mind and don't want to ahve to reload the page to clear the radio button

    The idea apeals to me too though, it would be nice to see how a node is doing even if you dont want to vote on it. However of course each vote or "no-vote" is additional data in the perlmonks DB so allowing everyone to "no-vote" all the nodes they want would probably put too greater load on the DB.

    ---If it doesn't fit use a bigger hammer
[reply]
Re: Blank votes, and total vote count display.
by grinder (Bishop) on Apr 11, 2002 at 15:30 UTC
    <cite>I suppose this probably has been up for discussion before

    Heh. Understatement of the year!

    No-one seems to have posted pointers to old threads on this topic, so here goes (judging by the node ids, this has been going on since the dawn of time)...

    There is another thread somewhere on the subject where someone suggested that both count(votes) and sum(votes) should be displayed for your reputation. Unfortunately I can't remember who, where or in what context. Oh well.

    This has been a Perl Monks community announcement.


    print@_{sort keys %_},$/if%_=split//,'= & *a?b:e\f/h^h!j+n,o@o;r$s-t%t#u'
[reply]
      *Grin* I hear you. And I thought as much - I was pretty surprised when five minutes spent on Super Search didn't give any hits on the subject.

      Anyways, seems like most don't like the idea very much, and I agree they give good arguments - and my main reason for posting (as is any post here imo) was to find out what people want as much as proposing something. Although displaying how many votes has been used to get the final rep count seems still a valid idea - if implementable.

      *Drops subject* - thank you all for your time. :)

      You have moved into a dark place.
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
[reply]

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