Programmer wages have little to do with how good/bad the language is at a particular task. They have to do with how difficult it is to find programmers who can code at the level needed by the employer.

Perl coders tend to be paid less because there are a lot of coders out there who can knock simple scripts together - and that's all a lot of people need. I would also guess that there is more Java work than perl work out there so resources are scarcer in the Java world.

If I was going to pick a language to learn that would give me the most renumeration it would be COBOL, since there are few people learning it and there is a lot of COBOL maintainance work out there.

Language choice on a project can have surprisingly little to do with whether the language is the best at solving a particular problem. It has more to do with buzzword compliance, the employers existing skill base and code base, etc. Perl is usually rejected for non-technical reasons in my experience.

That said, I do most of my professional coding in perl so it can pay some of the time :-) However, I am no language bigot and am happy to use other programming languages - and learn new ones all the time.

To survive in the commercial world you need a portfolio of skills - don't rely on a single language or you'll get bitten.

To increase the wages of perl coders encourage more perl work, and combat any FUD you see against the language.

(or remove other perl programmers from the work pool by a secret programme of assassination - but now I'm letting you into my secrets of success :-)

• Using it to solve problems at work when appropriate.
• Telling people about how you solved problems with it.
• Writing articles for websites and magazines about it.
• Helping with development of CPAN modules and the perl core if you are able.
• Answering questions for newbies on sites like this one.

Right on....

Programming is not about the tools you use (languages you know), but what you can do with them!
It's a state of mind which involves loads of common sense and preferably some experience.
The language you use to program in, is only of secondary importance.
At least in my experience...

Cheers,
Michael

Perl code sometimes runs afoul of licensing issues as well, since to be truly safe from license contamination arguably you need to distribute your app separately from any libraries and modules with incompatible licenses, though licensing is a separate issue entirely.

I hope, with the exception of the license issue, to make this better with Parrot.

And this deployment defficiency is addressed by PAR. So we can hope for better future :-)

I don't worry about it. Why should I? :-)

It's pretty much the same story in any large firm. The executives want to see Java developers (or maybe C# these days), because they know the name. They see ads for Java tools and .NET tools everywhere they go. They don't see nearly as much advertisement for Perl stuff, so they are afraid that Perl might be a "fringe" language. These people do not realize that we are too busy using Perl to tell everyone why they should be using it.

The attitude of the executives that I have described is usually called "buzzword compliance", meaning that they are only interested in tools which claim to utilize the latest widely-promoted technologies, or the most widely advertised tools. The sad truth is that many companies which operate based on "buzzword compliance" tend to be the first ones to collapse when things get difficult. Not always, of course, but enough to make me head for the door when the interviewer tells me that their latest product uses "SOAP and XML in a peer to peer environment to generate comprehensive B2B services. Oh, and we need someone with 10 years of .NET experience."

Here's one way to look at it: that Perl job might have a lower official salary than the Java job, it's true. But if the Java company collapses after 6 months while you are still working at the Perl place years down the line, which job will earn you more money?

Of course, any company can screw up and fold, so I have to look at it another way: I like Perl. I don't like Java. If I can get a job using Perl, I will. And as long as there are situations where Perl is the right tool for the task, there will still be paying Perl jobs.

I just realized that I was using the same sig for nearly three years.

"...Oh, and we need someone with 10 years of .NET experience."

LOL. How many times have we seen that in job descriptions lately? "Please have X years experience with a technology that is X - 2 years old."

• Your concern is right about money

My Random Thoughts

artist

For new clients (and projects within my firm) I usually don't even mention Perl at all. I list the buzzwords that Perl represent and almost always 'make a sale' (if they can afford me). I talk about the benefits I bring to the table with the language I program in and address their concerns as they come up. Here are some examples of how I describe Perl:

• Perl is Open Source. Open Source means that the actual working bits of the language are available to all anyone who is interested. Open Source means that there is no company that I am relying on to stay in business or have reasonable licensing structures.
• Perl is Long Lived. Perl has been growing and improving since it's introduction in 80's. The greatest part of this longevity comes from the fact that it is constantly being improved.
• Perl is Portable. You will be able to run these applications on pretty much any computer on the planet.
• Perl is Sticky. I may create your application to run on MySQL/Postgres, but it can be very easily modified to run on Oracle or DB2. Perl easily interacts with a wide variety of databases, protocols, and other programming languages.

None of this addresses the problem of some large corporations not recognizing the value of Perl or Perl programmers. But I'm not in that situation :)

oakbox

these are all great things to do and think about, for sure. Heres some more

(i) Better support for users' to make and distribute professional apps
the root of all misery.
(ii) a slick cross-platform GUI kit
*cough XPCOM/XUL cough*
(iii) some kind of symbiotic relationship with existing and future applications.
Moveable-Type and POPfile are pretty popular consumer-based apps. But they are alone in the wilderness. Maybe our own version of sourceforge to compliment CPAN?
(iv) Visible products that clearly state "made with Perl"
Not at the foot of the sourcecode, but on the splashscreen.
(v) Visible testimonials from corporate clients.
Not mysterious heresay from unknown sources. Make it a requirment of commercial use if need be.
(vi) a *kickass* aggressive marketing campaign.
I hate to say it - but I hate the thought of spending my life in Java induced tedium even more. Someone has to cough up the dough for this. Perl has gotten further than most on idealism, but this isnt a fairy story.
(vii) a community ethos based on using Perl to make stuff "real people" need.
Not sitting around forums jerking off over map

let me make that last point more clear

It doesn't matter how many ways you can call a subroutine - Perl has to be visible outside of the technical community. And the only way to get it there is to make stuff people need, with Perl, and let them know that Perl and its surrounding philosophy/community made it possible.
This is the responsibility of the extended Perl community. Larry Wall et al have very little power over this at all.

Uhm well a big reason is also I guess because perl usually is open-source so when a company develops software with a nice and new feature others will simply copy it etc etc...

I think you misunderstand Perl's license. Perl itself is Open Source. The software you create with it doesn't have to be.

But for really big applications tbh I would choose C++ and not perl for lots of reasons. Perl is great for small scripts, webpages and small apps but for really big stuff...hmm I guess C++ for example is just the better choice even if it would be possible with perl.

You seem convinced that C++ is better than Perl for "really big applications" but the fact that you haven't listed a single reason for that belief would tend to weaken your argument.

--
<http://www.dave.org.uk>

"The first rule of Perl club is you do not talk about Perl club."
-- Chip Salzenberg

Uhm sorry I guess I used the wrong words for this, but probably you understand what I meant anyway. (You can read the source-code :)
I prefer perl for almost everything, I use it for 99% of whatever I do and I love it. I introduced it to the company I work at, so some people here know perl now and we do lots in perl.
I don't think it's necessary to mention the reasons, not to you, because you know them like I do. Starts at the OO-Model goes along performance and ends at dependency-stuff. Ever coded a web-browser in perl? Sure it's possible, but will be it fast/stable etc? Ever coded anything else where performance is an issue like stock-charting software or any grafic-stuff? Yea it's possible with perl but will it be really good?
I'm not sure why I have to say this here, because everyone knows that already: Choose the right tool for your needs.

kodo

Kodo writes:
most perl-coders aren't as skilled as C-people usually (That's my personal experience, may be wrong).
Your disclaimer serves you well. I've known professional C programmers who were barely competent, and professional Perl programmers who are scary good technologists.
Perl jobs are offered for lower wages, I suspect, because Perl itself is still pigeonholed into being a web or scripting only language. It's a preconceived bias, sure, but this is why it's important not to limit yourself as merely a "Programmer of language X."
It's been said before: programming languages are a tool. A skilled practitioner uses the right tool for the job - and the master knows that Perl may well be the right tool, more often than you think.
Peace,
-McD

You are 100% right. There are both, bad perl-coder and bad C-Coders.
But ever had to work with one of those people who know "some" perl they learned in a perl-course have no clue about programming in general? They know howto write a small script but talk with them about design etc. and they got no clue. I hate that.
I didn't meet any C-coders that don't know "basic-stuff" yet. But as I mentioned already that's just my experience, can't tell you about anything else ;)

kodo

Brothers, I would like to hear your opinions about our future - future of Perl developers.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a single Perl job ad during the last few years in my country. Here people are completely into Java/C++/C#/PHP/Visual Basic. However, when I started working in a new place, I made a pretty good web app with content management and the managers really liked it. I think we should try to promote Perl as much as possible at our offices.

I work with many languages (C/C++,Java,Python,VB), but I still prefer Perl, much more. C/C++ is good only for speed. But Perl speed is good, better than Java (Java is a turtle ahaha) and VB (yes M$-VB too), and the memory management is better than all, or similar to C (saw a good article about this but can find it now).

If you want to tell to someone, that doesn't use Perl, that it's a good language and is a good choice for commercial projects, just say: Yahoo is made with Perl, no comments...

... or try to teach Perl to him! ;-P

More meditation:
This just tell how humans are stupid (yes we are). We go with the waves, not with the brain or knowledge. Java was there only because it has a good marketing over it. Perl doesn't have the marketing, only the monks. ;-)

Graciliano M. P.
"The creativity is the expression of the liberty".

I've heard Yahoo is in PHP.

Update: OK so here are the links for those that do not believe:slashdot, Cnet, techweb.

Yes, you only heard. Check this link:
Yahoo!'s History and Infrastructure

Graciliano M. P.
"The creativity is the expression of the liberty".

After five work days, I'd had four people (out of the 25 at the talk) asking me to help with scripts they were writing. So it looks like that little bit was all the spark that was needed here. (YMMV.)

--
tbone1
Ain't enough 'O's in 'stoopid' to describe that guy.
- Dave "the King" Wilson

You might also look over on http://jobs.perl.org/ for what is out there in the perl universe of jobs.