Insight into perl poetry?

Part of me feels that I should go on doing what I am doing in the Perl Poetry section (here and here) simply because it's fun and I like what I do.

But the other part of me (the stupid part, no doubt) realizes that I have a bare scintilla of any creative talent, and if I'm going to be posting things in public like I have been, they should be decent and at least tolerable. I don't condone torture, especially not perl poetry torture (second only to being locked up with a kender). I've heard one or two people say that they can't stand perl poetry in any form, and another say that the stuff is just perl code that manages to survive `-c' and not really poetry at all. This is too bad, but I would definitely like to hear what everyone else thinks.

To put it simply:

Why are my poems turning out crummy reputations?
Is there anything I can improve upon to satisfy Joe Q. Perlhacker?
How has my lastest poem failed to even make it out of the Newest Nodes section and into the Perl Poetry section?
What are some of your favorite perl poetry pieces from the past?

I would appreciate your comments and perhaps I can glean some insight into what you all like, and then add my own, pecular spin. I realize that I can't please 100% of the Perl Hackers 100% of the time (something vroom knows very well) but I'd like to give it a shot.

Best regards,

Alakaboo, JAPP*
I am the lurker that spams in the night.

* that's Just Another Perl Poet <grin>

Comment on Insight into perl poetry?

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RE: Insight into perl poetry? by BBQ (Curate) on Jul 29, 2000 at 20:16 UTC
I would have to agree with redmist. It seems that most people will take Perl Poetry very lightly and not be to concerned with the quality of perl or poetry. If I was ever to write a perl poem I would take it very seriously and make sure of the following: Its good poetry I have seen posts that are good perl, but they suck as poetry. I do not beleive that this is the idea at all. Perl poetry should be harder to write just because its real poetry in code. Its good perl Same as the above, except the other way around: Perl poetry should be harder to write just because its real code in poetry. :) Its in good taste and original Mind you that in good taste does not mean that we can't be obscene, or use vulgar language. I just think that all poetry (or prose for that much) has its place and time. Writing something like $perl++; or #!/usr/bin/perl__END__ and calling it poetry hardly qualifies. Not that its in "bad taste" but its so obvious, and has been said so many times before I can't see anyone benefiting from that sort of post. There's some reason to write it This is somewhat related to the above, but I'll go a bit deeper. I have never written any poetry, mainly because I have nothing to say. I feel that the day I have something that's worth while saying, I might, but for now its not like I'll get up one morning and say, "Oh! Maybe I'll give that perl poetry stuff a shot" and just start writing anything down. That is not a real reason to write. I am not trying to diss poetic license, much on the contrary, I think people are taking poetic license way too far... kaboo, I think your first poem was very good, your second ..humm.. yeah, okay, it was okay but not as good as the first. #!/home/bbq/bin/perl # Trust no1!	[reply]
RE: Insight into perl poetry? by redmist (Deacon) on Jul 29, 2000 at 11:08 UTC
I think that alot of people are real sticklers for continuity and the ability of the poems to actually be able to be run (not to say that your's were defiecient). Personally, I don't even like Perl poetry, so it has to be exceptionally good for me to ++ it. redmist redmist.dyndns.org redmist@users.sourceforge.net	[reply]
RE: Insight into perl poetry? by mcwee (Pilgrim) on Jul 30, 2000 at 03:59 UTC
I agree with BBQ's criteria on this one. I'm actually a really big fan of perl poetry. It's very existence doesn't just confirm teh flexibility and grace of the language, but also says alot about the community, and teh diverse group that find programming an accesible pastime when working in perl. As for your stuff: for me, the principle aesthetic problem with An anonymous tale is that the poem needs the comments in order to make sense. In perl poetry, I feel that comments should be strictly avoided, if possible (they basically amount to footnotes, and a contemporary poem which is mash without the footnoes has some problems. The poem itself should be able to make itself understood without a scaffolding of exposition being constructed around it.) Your own observation re: the failure of shifting themes pretty much hit the nail on the head: teh underlying perl isn't strong. This is the equivalent of a sonnet which has fine text but crappy prosody. Teh importance of the perl-ness of a perl poem is comparable to the importance of rythm in an English poem (not that this is on-topic or anything, but the most consistent formal concern in English poetry, from Old English through hip-hop, is a concern for rythm-- to write works which posses what Mr. Busta Ryhmes calls "flow." Prosody = flow (more or less), and apoem without flow is pretty much dead in the water.) By the by, my favorite perl poem thus far is down.pl-- it's a beautiful, graceful little hunk of code, in addition to being a very touching sentiment. It's good poetry enhance by being presented as good code (just as the contemporary sonnets of Mark Jarman are well articulated statements of the human condition enhanced be being presented with formal rigor.) (note on the Jarman poems: I personally prefer the third sonnet down.) I hope these critiques and trivia are helpful-- feel free to /msg me sometime if you wanna talk about it. I'm pretty (almost irrationally) enthusastic about perl poetry. The Autonomic Pilot; it's FunkyTown, babe.	[reply]
RE: Insight into perl poetry? by grackle (Acolyte) on Jul 30, 2000 at 07:27 UTC
The following pretty much sums up my aesthetic taste in Perl code, so stick a coefficient of .000001 on it and put it in the Joe Q. Perlhacker summation. Rule #1a A poem is not a good Perl poem if it would be better without the Perl (i.e., if there is a better non-Perl poem trapped inside trying to get out). Rule #1b Obfuscated code is not good obfuscated code if it is just a program with the characters shoved around to make ASCII art. Rule #2 If it provokes an emotional response (other than disgust) and #1 doesn't apply, it's worth posting. Rule #3 If it provides an "Aha!" moment, it's worth posting. If the art of Perl poetry can be compared to conventional poetry, then the art of obfuscated code can be compared to mathematical problem posing. It's easy to create code that is laborious to read, but it's hard to create code that rewards the effort of understanding it. Alakaboo: Don't get frustrated. Perhaps you should emulate the habits of "real" poets, as related to me by a poet friend of mine. Poets write lots of poems. Many poems get scrapped before they are finished, because they were bad ideas in the first place or the poet just got stuck. Poets rework their best poems, show them around, get feedback and perhaps do more reworking, and then pick a very few to publish openly. Of course, it's better to get dissed than to be too shy.	[reply]
RE: RE: Insight into perl poetry? by mwp (Hermit) on Jul 30, 2000 at 21:17 UTC
Poets rework their best poems, show them around, get feedback and perhaps do more reworking, and then pick a very few to publish openly. Of course, it's better to get dissed than to be too shy. This was the purpose of the "Insight into perl poetry" post. :) Now to rewrite that last one... Alakaboo I am the lurker that spams in the night.	[reply]
RE: Insight into perl poetry? by mwp (Hermit) on Jul 30, 2000 at 21:20 UTC
I'd just like to thank everyone who posted back, I think I understand what I've been doing wrong. This doesn't imply that my next poem will knock your socks off, but hopefully you will like it a bit better than the last few. Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you! Best regards, Mike	[reply]