No, no. If you are going to troll, you are supposed to compare me to Hilter not Machievelli. The more I try to compose a reply, the less I think your sentiment is serious.

Unless the node author is not a member, then the values I'm talking about apply to them as well. (And if they aren't a member, then anything to do with experience/reputation doesn't much apply to them anyway.)

So I have no desire to *encourage* it. I see value in allowing it.

I didn't discuss the reasons I see value in it (and I won't now). I was only discussing why I think it is a misktake to encourage it.

I was not trolling - so I'll try to clarify a bit my point. What I see here is that new users think that the XP points have some arbitrary value - that they are in fact indicator of the experience of the user. That is the reason they improve their posts to maximalize the XP gain. But the generall stance in the community here is that XP means nothing. So generally they exchange their valuable time to improve their posts for nothing. This is not fair.

Recently I have been reading online about the so called 'Gift Economies'. This is the model of relationship that should be applicable for most onlie communities (and for the community of scietific research too). What I found is that in most cases the 'Gift Economy' is in fact still all about exchange, but the exchage is not between individual humans but between a member of the community and the community as a whole. The value the community is giving back to the member is his reputation. This is quite natural for people to interpret XP as a measure of this kind of reputation.

The machiavellian part is in that you have people do the good things for a false reason. It works because they either stay at PM for enough time to learn about the true nature of reputation or they go away and don't disturb the working of The Monastery.

new users think that [XP...is] in fact indicator of the experience of the user

And I think XP is. It is a measure of the users' level of experience with the web site.

So generally they exchange their valuable time to improve their posts for nothing.

Actually, I think that if you spend valuable time improving your posting behavior to increase XP (other than with an unusually simplistic and naive attitude), then you're likely to learn something useful and increase your reputation.

But the generall stance in the community here is that XP means nothing.

Well, it is just a web site. Points at this web site have nothing much to do with the real world. They mean nothing just like the monkname I choose has nothing to do with my real name¹. They are about the same as points in a game.

The emphasis on "XP means nothing" is usually in response to whines about XP. Yes, if you take XP too seriously, you'll likely be told how little XP means. I think most people who say how insignificant XP is do realize that it has some value at this web site (but some people take simple mottos too much to heart and start to believe them). They likely don't realize all of the ways XP has an impact (I certainly doubt I do).

XP doesn't mean "nothing". Don't take it too seriously, but it does control whether you can moderate. It is an imperfect measure of your level of experience with the site. But if you expect any single number to be an accurate measue of something much more complex than your weight or height, then you are naive or aren't too bright (exuse me while I have a snack and stretch).

I suppose we could add a for-idiots disclaimer to the web site about how experience points are just points. But are there really people who expect to be able to turn in their points for cash and gifts at the end? Or that having a certain score means that they'll get better/faster answers, more respect, friendship, or whatever, no matter how they act?

Age is measure of experience. But if you act like a child, you'll be treated like a child no matter your age. You can't become president of the U.S.A. until your age score reaches a certain level. Perhaps the U.S. Constitution needs a disclaimer telling readers that age is not always a measure of maturity and that people will treat you with respect based on the reputation you build with them, not based on your age score?

If you have some concrete suggestion on how to better avoid a machiavellian duping of new users, then feel free to make it. But I'm more than tired of philosophical discussion of what XP is or isn't. And I'm unlikely to make other than extremely minor changes to the XP system.

¹Of course, my monkname is the same as my "real" name and there can also be other correlations between aspects of this site and real life. I think most people are capable of figuring out how that might apply to them so I won't try to explain further.

                - tye