in reply to Proving I have mad perl skillzzzlz

I'm going to assume you aren't in the US by your GMT time in your profile :)

First off, congrats! I know the huge weight that was lifted every time i accomplished something school related.

Now, when you job search for your first job, you can do many things. Search for the word "junior" or "entry level". Those type of jobs easily hire due to things like on-the-job training or no prior experience involved. Another way is to talk to people you know. Network. Someone you know knows you are smart. By 2 degrees of seperation, other people won't have a hard time believing in it too.

Once you have your foot in the door, show what programming experience you do have. Simply saying you are working on opensource programming will show that you code as a hobby. It's not a job secure-er but it's a plus. Also, having shown what courses you took in your high school era (ah.. such wonderful times) is a second plus. Thirdly, mention you are an active member of the perl community. It dosn't have to be detailed as "i post on perlmonks.org!" People will think, "perl monks? never heard of them." Word it as a larger perl online community servicing the public in solving problems in perl and helping neophytes (SAT word!). Something like that.

What opensource project? Depends. There's something called a vertical market. Software that specifically services a single industry, like medical/hospitals or financial packages (great plains, not quicken). Even a market as specific as veternarians. If you wanted to work in a hospital, or the bond market and worked on OSS software that gets you familiar with the terms of the industry, you are that much closer to getting a job.

A support group (operations/noc) job might not be a bad start. For instance, I'm a Production Support Engineer Programmer. It's industry-wise entry level. I write code to help second level support groups and developers in the bond company i work for know what the hell is going on with the systems. Think of it like a higly tuned netsaint system. I took the job for the financial experience alone, 'cause at my last job, I was a regular Software Engineer and before that a Senior one. Monitoring how many people provide spot prices on our system, or showing how many trades are at a particular status, or showing various volumes is important. A tad easy for my experience, but I'm learning the industry w/o working on the larger systems and possibly designing something that may be confused since I didn't know what a benchmar was or a junk bond was. :)

You are smart to go to University. It may be a formality to you or may totally blow your mind away. none-the-less, big-wigs or those who don't know you like to see you've finished school to a certain level. Work experience can sub for it, but it's a lot of work getting a job w/o the school experience. :) But when a job description says, PhD or 10 years work experience, you have a clue how much more wise you should be in the future.

So remember, look for entry-level, junior level or even noc jobs. They prolly will train you. And stay in the industry you are most interested in. If it's programming in any area, great. If you wanna work on nuclear systems, look towards that. And get familiarized with it. It's a huge difference from being clueless on what people are talking about. Good luck!


Play that funky music white boy..

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Re: Re: Proving I have mad perl skillzzzlz
by hardburn (Abbot) on Dec 22, 2003 at 15:01 UTC

    Simply saying you are working on opensource programming will show that you code as a hobby.

    I can't agree with this statement. There are simply too many people out there who say "I'm working on building my own OS kernel written in Perl" or something like that. Just look on SourceForge for projects that were started years ago but have yet to release any files and likely never will (I'm guilty of creating a few of them) (yes, I know they're starting to clean out stale projects).

    If you want to put an Open Source project on your resume, be sure that you have released some actual code for it. It doesn't have to be big. It could be full of bugs and only have minimal functionality. As long as it runs through the compiler/interpreter without errors and has some basic functions, you'll be ahead of 90% of the "Open Source Programmers" out there that have nothing to show.

    When I got my current job, I was working on a server implementation (in Perl) of the Hypertext Coffee Pot Control Protocol (RFC 2324) (there are a few clients for it out there, but I couldn't find any servers). When I was asked for code examples, I had already gotten the server up to the point of a basic HTTP/1.1 server, but the HTCPCP methods weren't implemented yet. That didn't matter, since I knew what I had worked, so I submitted it. I have now been working for that company for a year and a half, though the HTCPCP server still sits at the point it did back then . . .

    ----
    I wanted to explore how Perl's closures can be manipulated, and ended up creating an object system by accident.
    -- Schemer

    : () { :|:& };:

    Note: All code is untested, unless otherwise stated

[reply]
[d/l]
      You are 100% right. If you say you are doing the deed, make sure to have some proof. Lying on your resume or about your experience is a sure fire way to lose a job opportunity, but still at least tell people what you do is a good idea, including OSS.

      Play that funky music white boy..
[reply]

        I don't think it has anything to do with lying. The people who say "right now, I'm working on this one project . . . " are usually sincere in saying so. It's just that there are a lot of people who say that, but few of them have the discipline to even get something that works at a minimum level, much less get to a reasonable standard of functionality.

        I once read a book on working as a game programmer. This is a highly competitive field, since making games is a dream job for a significant chunk of programmers out there. It interviewed several noteworthy designers in the industry. More than one of them noted that 90% of the people looking for jobs in their shops are of the "I'm working on Foo" veriety. The remaining 10% may not have completed anything more complex than a Pong clone or even a screen saver, but they often get hired.

        ----
        I wanted to explore how Perl's closures can be manipulated, and ended up creating an object system by accident.
        -- Schemer

        : () { :|:& };:

        Note: All code is untested, unless otherwise stated

[reply]
[d/l]
      Simply saying you are working on opensource programming will show that you code as a hobby. I can't agree with this statement. There are simply too many people out there who say "I'm working on building my own OS kernel written in Perl" or something like that. Just look on SourceForge for projects that were started years ago but have yet to release any files and likely never will (I'm guilty of creating a few of them) (yes, I know they're starting to clean out stale projects).
      Not wishing to put words in his mouth, but when I read that line I thought the whole "working on an opensource program .. as a hobby" meant more along the lines of you honestly enjoy coding, enough to do so in your outside time as well. It seems to me that an employer would prefer to employ someone who likes what he does, not so?

      But of course you are absolutely right about the whole starting and not finishing thing, and there do seem to be large numbers of programs like that.
[reply]
Re: Proving I have mad perl skillzzzlz
by b10m (Vicar) on Dec 22, 2003 at 15:31 UTC
    So remember, look for entry-level, junior level or even noc jobs.

    Although I fully agree on most part of your post, I disagree with this line. If the OP stumbles upon a great job that's not "entry-level" he shouldn't aim for it and give it a shot?

    The jobmarket is quite tough nowadays (yeah BUU, if only you finished highschool some 5 years ago, when a mere proclamation of "Ehh, I know how to spell Perl" was enough to get you a job). Jobs aren't offered in the mass quantities as they were some years ago. So I would suggest to aim for any job you like. The worst case scenario is they tell you "no, sorry, we found someone else". Of course, most applications for "senior" jobs specifically state the minimum year of job experience, but once in a blue moon, you may find a job that does not do that. And even if it does? Go for it :-) An e-mail is easilly written; attach resume and see where it'll lead.

    I fully support the idea posted by vagnerr of having some Open Source project(s) as "proof". Get something on Sourceforge and Freshmeat to even gain some people using the scripts. This will -IMHO- definately make a good impression on the potential employer.

    Another thing I tend to see lately is that the actual college degree isn't worth as much as it used to be. A lot of (Dutch) applications require (roughly translated) a "university level of thinking", rather than a "university degree". Of course, if you have the brain (probably yes) and money to go do collge, definately go for it (if only it was for the insane parties /me thinks back and puts on an awkward smile ;-). It will always be a plus, but certification seems to win some grounds. Stuff like ITIL, LPI, RHCE, CCNA (not necesarilly in that order ;). I took the ITIL certification at my first job, since they made that as a requirement (and payed for it). I found it really easy to get, but it's like magic on your resume. (At least in The Netherlands). Certifications are a cheap and fast way to boost your resume.

    --
    b10m
[reply]
      Applying to anything and everything isn't a bad idea but...

      My first thing to notice is that he's young. Not young and reckless, just young and inexperienced. If he's 18, chances are, he won't find something that requires 2-3 years of experience. The problem with looking for perl developer is, you get a high-noise-to-data ratio. You'll be looking for jobs that want people wet behind the ears, but it's the general rule that non-entry level jobs look for non-entry people. There are MANY MANY exceptions to the rules, but those usually go by word of mouth.

      In NY, it is more about who you know. Not like everyone knows me and will get hired because they know me... but if I know of a job position that is perfect for a friend, they'll get a job via me better than finding it on their own.

      Certifications are touch and go. I know a lot of companies who wind up testing applicants, which is great. Certificiation is similar to prior experience. It increases the size of the foot you get in the door.


      Play that funky music white boy..
[reply]

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