leadership is by example

Heh. I didn't create pmdev. It isn't that I really "want" pmdev to do these things. If pmdev wants my help, then that is how they'll get it.

Maybe at some distant time I'll try to drag pmdev along, holding hands and cheerleading. More likely (but maybe not very likely) we'll find someone else to do that.

I find it hard to make time to do maintenance work on PM. That's miles away from what it takes to build a team as you describe. I tried (lamely) to build pmdev before but that was a mistake because I had nothing near the availability required.

Were you a god at the time? If yes then this point is moot as you could easily discover this information on your own. Pmdev cant

Discovering technical details does not magically become "easy" by virtue of being in gods. And it certainly isn't impossible for those in pmdev. You can do anything technical that I can via the test site. So I don't see any difference, much less this huge chasm you claim.

Also, if people arent qualified to comment them isnt it better they dont?

Sure, if you are ignorant and want to stay ignorant, keep your mouth shut. Part of it is also the old Usenet trick: If someone posts a question that you want to know the answer to but noone is answering it, an almost sure-fire approach is for you to post an incorrect answer.

I'd like to assist pmdev. I'm not going to lead, I'm not going to push. I've made suggestions in the past. I've reviewed other code and designs. I've posted my code. I've never seen much happen in response. If pmdev wants to work, they'll have to pull themselves up or find some leader certainly other than me. And now that we have a test site, at least one of those leaders shouldn't be in gods. And I don't see any requirement that any leader be in gods.

All pmdev needs from gods is applying patches. I've described how they can get me to do that. I haven't seen any other such descriptions from gods. So, if you don't like my terms, why aren't you pestering any of the other dozen(?) members? If pmdev wants to do what I've described, then I'll be here. If not, then they aren't self-motivated enough to succeed with the time I have available for them.

This is not a design on my part of how to build pmdev. It is an unfortunate situation. Do I expect pmdev to do these things without my proactive, long-term leadership by example? No. I expect pmdev to not do these things, even with limited leadership by example from me.

So I've given up trying (as it doesn't work and it just annoys the pigs). This is not a criticism of pmdev. I don't expect it of them. I'm not disappointed in them. I just slowly came to realize what is required from my point of view and have now expressed it because you were interested without simply criticiizing.

And since it is becoming more clear to me you are unwilling to be the leader, it looks like pmdev is still not ready to take off.

- tye        

In reply to Re^8: New Section: Obfu Art Gallery? (leader) by tye
in thread New Section: Obfu Art Gallery? by jarich

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