First: I apologize for not getting back to you more quickly on this. Due to complications resulting in part from a power failure, my primary workstation, as well as several other systems for which I'm responsible, is currently out of commission. Until I have this situation sufficiently resolved, I'll be less regularly on any discussion fora than usual.

Second: "Most people" agreeing with something is wholly irrelevant to its truth, and your reference to "most people" agreeing with a statement you made is the fallacy of appeal to popularity to which I referred in earlier post(s).

Third: I haven't flamed you. The fact that you seem to think I have is evidence that your skin may be too thin.

Fourth: Your insistence on belittling and dismissing me for no reasons apart from my apparent lack of popularity and conformity with popular opinion is getting more and more difficult to overlook in the interests of diplomacy. Before you claim you aren't doing such things, I suggest you read through your commentary to which I'm replying, in which you use appeals to ridicule to imply I have no substance behind my words and am incapable of reasoning.

Fifth: I never offered proof of anything — only logically valid reasoning. Proof (as opposed to "a proof") requires truth and, unfortunately, every single assertion a human can possibly make must be based upon an assumption somewhere.

Rather than pick this up in your suggested other venue, I'll just present here a brief summation of an example of a valid ethical system:
Okay. From the beginning.

One must start somewhere. I begin with cogito ergo sum, as it seems the very beginning of both epistemological and ontological metaphysical frameworks. Let me know if you disagree.

Based on the notion, then, that I exist, I contemplate whether others do. This seems to be an insurmountable problem. Solipsism is not disprovable. Solipsism, however, is irresponsible when its alternative is no less disprovable. Thus, I operate under the assumption that others (the rest of you) are out there as well.

(skipping procession from "others" to "you" and simple existence to some kind of empirical validity, which is mostly based on the same process as moving away from solipsism simply reoriented)

If we're all out there somewhere, and this world exists, it becomes clear that we have two options: interact, or not. If you choose "not", you're removed from a discussion of ethics, and of no concern to me.

Interaction has two options: interaction for benefit, or interaction for reasons that do not take benefit into account. Interaction for reasons other than benefit are A) pointless or B) ultimately self-defeating. Let's assume a desire to interact for benefit.

(we've been EXTREMELY simplified in the explication thus far, and will continue to be so: try to avoid looking for reasons to disagree based on the fact I haven't gone into greater depth)

Interacting for benefit requires some rules of conduct to maintain higher rates of success in producing benefit. Such rules of conduct — stating what is "right" or "wrong" in systems of interaction for purposes of maximizing benefit — would be called a system of ethics. Thus, an ethical system is needed. More to the point, it must be a system that is not self-contradictory, and it must be something that can be universally applied so as not to invalidate itself by inconstant and arbitrary application.

Benefit for any individual can only be had if that individual can define its own standard of benefit. That being the case, self-determination is the first internal goal of a valid ethical system.

Self-determination being an important goal of a valid ethical system, one must realize that the principle of self-determination requires a restriction on individual behavior, in that no individual can act to interfere with the right of self-determination of another individual. By extension, no individual can act by proxy to interfere with another individual's right, either.

Thus, coercion and uninvited violence are right out.

From what I've said thus far, we arrive at the necessary initial premise of a valid ethical system: The initiation of force is wrong.

I tend to think that a reasonably intelligent individual with some grasp of logic can fill in the rest from there, proceeding from that premise to a libertarian system. If you have some other system we'd arrive at from there logically, it'll certainly boggle my mind, but I'd be interested to hear/read it.

By the way, your "humble" suggestion is anything but. Self-flattering arguments from personal authority such as your link to Saints in our Book are anything but humble. I shouldn't be surprised, however, that you're subtly contradicting yourself yet again.

- apotheon
CopyWrite Chad Perrin

In reply to Re^15: Musing on Monastery Content by apotheon
in thread Musing on Monastery Content by Old_Gray_Bear

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