I'm willing to apply patches. I've applied patches. I will continue to apply patches. It's often going to take a long time for me to apply a patch if I haven't already seen it picked apart and put back together by others. I've only seen that done to a very limited degree so far.

tye im sorry to have to say this, but leadership is by example. If thats what you want pmdev to do then you have to do it as well. You have to pick apart some patches and help put them back together. You have to comment on them so that we see what you have in mind. Also what you want pmdev to do with their patches should apply to you and the other gods code. You guys shouldnt be modifying code and applying it without it going through the _same_ scrutiny, by pmdev, as you expect pmdev to go through with their own stuff. If this doesnt happen then your expectations are in vain. Nobody in pmdev will do stuff that you yourself dont want to do.

You see, my problem with this situation is that without these posts pmdev would have _no_ idea what was required to get things going. You want us to do all sorts of review and debate and collaborative development, but you havent demonstrated how it should work, or even if it can work at all. You wonder why there is no debate in pmdev yet I've not seen you start such a debate. You wonder why we dont collaborate, but theres no direction to do so. We are expected to do and know all this without anything from you or the gods. Sorry, but those expectations are in vain. The fact that im one of the most prolific patch providers is probably due to my general stubbornness in being willing to continually bang my head against the wall without feedback or any kind of norms being established by the gods.

In hind sight, I think part of the reason I haven't steered pmdev more is that much of the time it looked to me like I'd have to do it with the driver's-side door open pushing it. When I see it rolling somewhere, I'm more likely to jump in and steer for a bit.

Excuse me, but who the hell _ever_ came along to help push a car with the driver sitting inside at the wheel? And if a bunch of guys start pushing a car what gives you the right to come along and jump into the car and start steering it? If you want the right to steer the car you have to be willing to push it as well. And if you want people to help you push the car that you are steering you better be willing to push the car. Maybe your analagy was unsound. But if it isnt then I can see why pmdev has gone and will not go anywhere. Its just not how groups of people work.

But I'm a lot more inclined to steer when I see more than one person behind the vehicle pushing.

Well, my view is that Im willing to push and steer by myself until someone wants to help push too. Once theve pushed for a while id probably let them steer too. But I shore dont expect anybody to push just so I can steer.

Part of the problem of getting good feedback is that even most members of pmdev don't have a good appreciation for many of the design considerations of PerlMonks. I certainly didn't when I started. Did some chicken shepard me into my current understand? No.

Were you a god at the time? If yes then this point is moot as you could easily discover this information on your own. Pmdev cant. Also, if people arent qualified to comment them isnt it better they dont? When I post a patch and somebody on pmdev doesnt understand the design issues what should they do? Personally if I saw one of your patches and didnt understand the design issues so long as nothing looked _wrong_ I wouldn't say anything. Now if you specifically asked me to review a patch and then post questions and issues I would raise it, but if you just said any comments id probably leave it alone.

So, I still think the ball is your hands. Ill do my shepherding and try to recruit some people to join pmdev. Ill also post some new stuff to the wikis to try to get the ball rolling. But I stand by my claim. You have various patches that you are working on and would like to eventually apply. Clear the wiki, and start this whole protocol with your patch. Show us what kind of debate and discussion should happen with your patch. Or hell somebody elses patch. It doesnt matter. But I think that if you want there to be a car to steer youll have to show us what kind of pushing you want. Show. Preferably not tell. And certainly not guess.

Anyway, I think the place to move this to is the wiki and possibly a new pmdev node. Ill be doing some activity in these areas soon.

Cheers