"I think [Java and COBOL are] criticized for being business languages that are made to prevent people from screwing up too badly. That doesn't make them bad."

That's the "Rock Star" mentality, right? Business is "stiff tie stuffy shirt" stuff. To some degree, i feel this way. I have a lot freedom as a Perl developer, but as a Java developer i would have to "follow rules." But you know what? I have never worked with a Java development team, and while i have dabbled in Java enough to pass the Sun Java Programmer's Certification, i have never been hired as Java programmer -- so i really can't say anything about Java or COBOL. I doubt you can either.

"The world shouldn't limit itself to highly skilled programmers and software users. There could be people in between."

There are plenty of people in between. I was one. I wanted to learn how to program so i went back to college and finished a 4 year BS in Computer Science. While i was there i noticed that there were two kinds of newbies -- those that listened to others and those that tried to carve their own way. The first kind made it, the second didn't.

"The world also shouldn't limit itself to ugly programming languages that take a long time to learn due to all of the idioms and modules and miscellaneous features that you're expected to make use of."

What you again fail to see is that a programming language merely represents something else. Writing a forking server from scratch (without helpers modules/classes) is hard in practically every languange you pick (unless that language was specifically designed to make writing forking servers easy). Why? Because it's a hard concept to grasp. What you fail to see is that these miscellaneous features and such are to be taken with a grain of salt. If you don't need them don't use them ... but, in your PerlMonks' education, you are suppose to be reading questions by others and learn from the answers given. If i had never joined Perlmonks, i might have never learned how to use map and sort and be able to code a Schwartzian Transform from scratch. Do you know how to use map? In a non void context way, of course. ;)

"A language designed for its creator doesn't take others into consideration, and that's no better than designing one that's semi-idiot proof, as I've heard Java described."

Again, you missed the point. Look --- try this, imagine that what someone says is true. Now try to see how it might be true. A language designed for it's creator means that it will do what the creator meant for it to. Sometimes, that is all you need to get the job done. But, just because Perl was made this way doesn't mean that others can not, will not, or have not already participated. The Perl community is huge, it is much more than just Larry Wall. But Larry started Perl by himself, for himself. Java is a language that started out "design by committee." But that doesn't necessarily make Java bad. I think what makes Java bad is the major discrepancies between versions. Stuff breaks too easy. Java is suppose to be semi-idiot proof, but how can a project succeed if you assign COBOL programmers to a Java project? Yes, this really happened recently ... and yes, they failed.

Languages are just a tool. There is an old saying, "Only a bad carpenter curses his/her tools." What kind of carpenter are you?

You know ... Quentin Tarrantino made his first film (not Reservoir Dogs) completely by himself. He shot footage for about 2 or 3 years and was never able to view it due to the cost. When he finally was able to start viewing his material and edit a movie together, he was quite shocked at how bad and amateurish his direction was. Was he dissapointed? No. He was quite happy, because he viewed it as the best "Film School" education he could have. Did he show the film off? No. Absolutely not.

Get it? No. I didn't think you would. Gotta try. (or was that dance ...)

UPDATE: I was wrong ... it is gotta dance.

L-LL-L--L-LL-L--L-LL-L--
-R--R-RR-R--R-RR-R--R-RR
B--B--B--B--B--B--B--B--
H---H---H---H---H---H---
(the triplet paradiddle with high-hat)

"Only a bad carpenter curses his/her tools."

OK, I want you to make me a replica of a British Colonial bedroom set using a cheese grater and a pair of sheep sheers. And when you're done, tell me why it doesn't even remotely resemble a set of British Colonial furniture.

just kidding....

However, you are allowed to complain if you are being "forced" to use the wrong tool for the job.

I once talked to a physicist who was using one of those super computers that did bigillions™ of calculations a second. He complained that C++ wasn't fast enough and instead used inline C functions. Why? He was doing so many calculations that the difference in speed was measured in hours. Apparently, he was having memory problems as well. Don't ask me the particulars of what he was doing, I didn't understand it. At the time, I did realize he definitely knew more about programming than I did.

Apparently, there is a place for C ;)

smiles