In this part of the world, Nanette has no legal grounds to sue Sayuko herself. She can only sue the board. Now, Nanette can *file* a lawsuit naming Sayuko, but in this part of the world, such a suit would be tossed pretty fast.

It is the board's responsibility to make every attempt to deal with those situations covered in the covenants, and as long as Sayuko has been keeping detailed records of the attempts to rectify the situation, I don't think a lawsuit has much merit.

I would offer Sayuko some friendly advice, however... The fastest way to failure as a Board President (or member) is to start taking situations personally. Sayuko finds herself in a situation as a result of becoming the Board President. Nanette may be the irritant, but if it wasn't Nanette, it would be someone else soon. The way to avoid Association conflict is to not represent the Association.

The way I deal with the Nanettes in my Association is through staunch following of a standard policy. I treat every situation exactly the same... I follow the exact same steps... write the exact same reports... give the exact same level of service to all people, and I have the documents to prove it.

Then, when Nanette's lawyers come calling, there's ample evidence that I've done everything *required*, and in the same fashion as I have treated all others.

As long as there's no evidence that Sayuko is shirking her duties, nor giving any less service than to anyone else, then she shouldn't fear Nanette.

I gather, though, that Sayuko wasn't really interested in being the Association President to begin with, and hasn't found much joy in doing it... perhaps she should reconsider if it's worth the stress it places on her life?

She's not going to be able to make Nanette happy... She's not even going to be able to make Nanette be quiet. Nanette is what she is, regardless of her motivations, and is the reality of the situation.

Sayuko only has control over herself, her reactions to the situation, and her role in the situation. Those are the things she can change.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but after doing this for three years, I can tell you that it *never* gets better... it's never 'fun'... and quite frankly, no one will ever care whether you do it or not... They only care that *they* don't have to do it.

Trek

Sayuko should dump her boyfriend as he is the cause of her problems. He pushed her to take a post she had little inclination, interest, or time for. Then to compound matters he suggests that she spend the association's money, indirectly her money, to get council on a suit that a loudmouth hasn't even filed. What was he thinking Nanette is going to get for a judgement? for loud pipes? What did he think Nanette was going claim Sayuko did to wrong her? Conspire with upstairs neighbors to put loud water into the drain pipe?

Sayuko can simply resign for lack of time or for the task not matching her expectations. She need not worry about the association lacking a board, just follow the by-laws regarding quitting or call a meeting of members.

It's easy ... to minimize the largeness of these sorts of events ... the story's general outlines [sic] will seem very commonplace.

This is a worthy insight. Contrarily it is possible to magnify the importance of such conflicts by letting one's emotions fix on them.

Taking the stance that Nanette is an unreasonable, nasty, selfish, litigatious shrew; while seemingly accurate is both ungenerous and impractical. Ungenerous: the person can't sleep for the noise and you expect a good mood. Impractical: it is always a failing strategy to focus on the negatives of people one must deal with. That last sentence is an easily supported assertion.

When I deal with people like Nanette I try to keep this question close: What must it be like to be them?

Please don't dedicate rants and ventings, dedicate good stuff.

Be well,
rir

I'm with you, much of the way... until you start saying what a horrible person Nanette is. You don't know her. You've spoken to her what, a couple times? Heard second-hand about her? She said it right off the bat. She's not used to living in an appartment, with upstairs nehibors. That's not a crime, is it? It's talking to the people who came to welcome you, but you seem to assume that she said it with her nose held high, insulting everone else there, which was probably not how she intended it.

Yes, the thing clearly got out of hand. Does this mean that B is the devil, and A is a saint? No. It makes them two people who are embrolied in a disagrement, one of whom clearly has put far too much on her own shoulders. This disagreement bears every hallmark of being all about one not hearing what the other is saying, like most disagreements.

All sinners are saints, and all saints are sinners. Gods, Presidents, boyfriends, girlfriends, wives, husbands, and even simple tennants are capable of being small and petty from time to time. It's only how quicly we realize we are being small and petty that matters.

For those wondering about how this relates to Perl and the Monestary: why don't you sue Intrepid for posing this. I dare you.

The other option would be to put in a water softener and tell her to shut up. :)

I've been in the neighbor from hell scenario. I ended up moving and never looked back. Best thing I ever did.

Bottom line is: These kind of problems do pass. Sometimes they resolve themselves, sometimes you move.

Best of luck to her!

Bottom line is: These kind of problems do pass. Sometimes they resolve themselves, sometimes you move.

And sometimes someone commits murder, or am I the only one who's seen those episodes of Law & Order :)?

MJD says "you can't just make shit up and expect the computer to know what you mean, retardo!"

I run a Win32 PPM repository for perl 5.6.x and 5.8.x -- I take requests (README).

** The third rule of perl club is a statement of fact: pod is sexy.

And sometimes someone commits murder, or am I the only one who's seen those episodes of Law & Order

You mean the episode with the caption Based on true events in the future?

The lesson is all of this, should be to ask yourself.."how did I get into this situation?" ..."what is the root cause of the bad karmic occurences"...and "how do I elevate myself above it?"

Have you ever thought about challenging the concept of "the ownership society?". The whole concept of renters and landlords is a bizarre,sick, master-slave relationship. Condos are not much different.

Humans were meant to live in inter-dependent tribes of around 100 people. We now are living in non-tribal camps of strangers, who share no interdependencies, and are over-crowded. They will fight like "rats in a cage". </2cents>

Interesting point of view.

I would have thought the condo could be considered a "tribe" but it seems that not all living there share the same thought.

May be it could change if all living in the same condo start wearing the same tattoo? That would really bring the tribe together (imagine all people living in the condo joining together to put a tattoo on Nanette)!

CountZero

"If you have four groups working on a compiler, you'll get a 4-pass compiler." - Conway's Law

I would have thought the condo could be considered a "tribe"

It would probably be one, if everyone was employed by the same company, all their kids went to the same school, and they never wandered farther than they could walk. Then they would band together. See and talk to one another on the walking paths.

But probably they don't even know each other's name's (except for Nanettes :-) ) And they all head off in different directions every morning in the cars. Not much of a community.

Some Real Estate developers are setting up nice communities here and there. Most of them are built in a big circle, where you park your cars outside, and walk in. The schools,shopping and work are located in the center. That creates a "bonding effect" and a "sense of common purpose".

---

I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth. flash japh

Yeah karma, something bad's happening to me, I should contemplate what did I do bad to others. And I should contemplate long enough till I find something. And if I don't it must be something from my previous life. Or maybe a group karma, it's the centuries of slavery and wars of the white men hounting me. What a load of bullshit!

Life ain't fair, bad things happen to good people just as (if not more) often as to the bad ones. Yeah I should attempt to be kind to others and hope they'll be the same to me, but contemplating what did I (or we) do wrong to deserve the problems is simply stupid.

BTW if you are not a human you should not be telling us how should we live. Greetings to your kibuc, tribeman.

Jenda


We'd like to help you learn to help yourself Look around you, all you see are sympathetic eyes Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home    -- P. Simon in Mrs. Robinson

bad things happen to good people just as (if not more) often as to the bad ones.

Whose is to say who is good or bad? You? Who defined "goodness" and "badness"? Some school teachers you had? The "TV"? The point is you need self-introspection, and that leads to the concept of karma. I don't care is you call it bullshit, thats were your "state of karma" is....denial. Thats about normal for modern people who deny their mortality.

BTW if you are not a human you should not be telling us how should we live.

I'm not telling you how to live, just pointing out that "an unexamined life is wasted". I'm no "christ figure", I'm not trying to save you. Someone posted an OT post about the "human condition", and I gave my view. I'm sorry if it offended your sensibilities.

---

I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth. flash japh

Sayuko isn't blameless in all of this, either. She could have asked Nanette, as it is her apartment, to meet the plumbers. She could have asked Nanette to meet with the board to discuss her issues. She could have done any number of things. And, if the pressure was too much, she could have simply announced her intention to resign for personal reasons in 3 months. After such a time, if no-one else stepped up, she could have just walked away. It is a failing to walk away from a situation that can only cause you harm. It is not a virtue and to call it that is to be chained with guilt. As a Buddhist, Sayuko should be aware of that. Where is the balance in inviting disharmony into your life?

I sympathize with you and your girlfriend. I also sympathize with Nanette. It sounds like a very poor situation for all parties and should be approached as such.

A thought - has anyone asked Nanette if she wants to be president?

I have seen court cases started for more frivolous reasons than that!

The neighbour from hell has no reason at all to claim against the condominium: she bought the apartment from the previous owner and should complain there, but he probably has an iron-clad contract and she's out-of-luck there, so it is easy to target your friendly board members.

We live in a society of individuals who cannot even consider the meaning of a community. Fortunately there are still some people who --against all advice to the contrary-- will take the heavy burden of supporting a community, be it as the President of a condominium board or as a volunteer in a charity or in any other community function. None or few of them are saints, most are ordinary people but they will face whatever is thrown at them and they will not duck but stand firm.

You both should be ashamed that you even dare to suggest that Sayuko should go the way of the least resistance and bail out of the board. Will it end her trouble? Not at all as she still lives in the condominium and the problems will not disappear if she leaves her post.

Sayuko clearly has taken the very moral position that someone has to do something about it and that running away is not an option, nor is dropping it in someone else's lap.

To give you a personal example: when I was a lawyer, people regularly asked me how I could bring myself to defend criminals even in cases where it was clear (to the uninformed mobs, I might add) that this criminal was guilty.

I always answered that even the worst criminal has a right to be defended in court by a professional lawyer and that by not taking such case out of moral considerations, I would simply burden another lawyer with the same moral problems I so conveniently avoided by not taking the case. I find such an attitude most immoral.

Sayuko has my best wishes and strength I can project to her. It is not much, I know, but perhaps she can take some little comfort in the idea that community feeling is not dead yet.

rir, you must be kidding when you say

he suggests that she spend the association's money, indirectly her money, to get council on a suit that a loudmouth hasn't even filed. What was he thinking Nanette is going to get for a judgement? for loud pipes? What did he think Nanette was going claim Sayuko did to wrong her? Conspire with upstairs neighbors to put loud water into the drain pipe?

I thought my humor was obvious when I start by blaming Sayuko's boyfriend particularly when it is apparently Intrepid, who coyly avoided stating the fact. I keep trying to soak my humor before sharing...

But I stand by my above points: A suit against Sayuko personally sounds ridiculous. A suit against the association is pointless: the association is trying to do just what a judge would order them to try to do. Nanette is most likely a blowhard and not apt to file anything--what is she going to gain?

Intrepid draws a charming profile of Sayuko; that is what I'll remember of this thread 15 years hence.

I agree with what TrekNoid said in this thread.

You state you are no longer a lawyer but you don't feel you have shirked the moral responsibilities you had. How is Sayuko quitting any different? I am not ashamed to suggest that Sayuko seek happiness and peace in her life, I am not worried that she will stop doing good in the world.

I find your view of the moral issues of defending criminals interesting.

the problems will not disappear if she leaves her post.

No, they will drastically diminish.

We live in a society of individuals who cannot even consider the meaning of a community.

I do not live in such a society.

Be well,
rir

Oops, sorry, I didn't catch the humorous tone. Write it down to my past as a lawyer.

I'm quite sure that Nanette's claim is no good, but it will stil take a lot of time, effort, money and stress before it is over. Don't think too fast people will not go to court. Most of them have no legal knowledge whatsoever (other than what they have seen on TV) and will readily find an unscrupulous lawyer who will represent them. "A fool and his money are easily parted!" Believe me I have been in court far too often to defend my clients against the most frivolous claims one could imagine.

TrekNoid said some wise things and being the President of the board of a condominium takes indeed a certain psychological profile which is not given to everybody. Still, once you have taken on the job and unless you have a proven trackrecord of being bad at the job, one should not quit that easily. If Sayuko quits now, the claim will not go away, so she is really better positioned to defend herself in her function as President than as being a simple member of the condo.

Praise yourself that you live in a society which his more than a bunch of individuals.

CountZero

"If you have four groups working on a compiler, you'll get a 4-pass compiler." - Conway's Law

Yuck! I am thankful that my homeowners association has not descended into that circle of hell, although I can see the apathy...

ObPerl: ...left as an exercise for the reader.