I thought the nature of the term Script Kiddie, meant that they just ran someone elses exploit or program and didn't know how to code at all?

Taking into account other's replies, e.g.revdiablo's one, I think you're right. Actually I hadn't noticed the stress on exploits (or more generally, vandalism) and I thought it to refer to people running others' programs hardly knowing how to code or as you say, without knowing how to code at all.

In some sense my question still applies to such people (losing the emphasis on the damage intentions) if only you take into account all those who blindily used, say, Matt's scripts thus contributing both to Perl's diffusion and to that -indirectly- of cargo cult perl programming...

I agree with ghenry's comment. I think you're misunderstanding the term "script kiddie." As far as I'm concerned, the type of behavior usually associated with that term -- i.e., running exploit scripts without any skill or even passing knowledge of what's going on -- is nothing but negative.

Ignoring that, I think the question you're asking is whether newbies, cargo cultists, or other "poor coders" are a benefit to the community. That's a more interesting question, and I think the answer is yes. Whether they are contributing positively now is not what I'm concerned with; I think there is the potential for them to contribute in the future. I know this from experience. Not only from my own experience, but from observing the path others have followed, as well.

There definitely seems to be a trend with people who stick around long enough. The social pressure put forth by the Perl community seems to be towards self-improvement and increased quality, even if it's often balanced by a fairly strong praticality. So I think anyone who sticks around and pays attention enough will eventually get pulled into the fold, and what you call "script kiddies" -- even if that's not the correct or normal use of the term -- seems to fit this theory.

I would like to extend a little bit on CGI.

For a programming language to gain user bases, application areas are very important. If there are several areas, or even one, in which Perl is the first choice, or one of the first choices, Perl will gain its user bases much faster. Two examples: 1) Perl was once the most preferred, if not the only one, language for CGI. If you want a CGI application, go Perl, and Perl did grew at its fastest pace back then. 2) Today, when people talk about web application, they face two choices, Java or C#. With C# picking up its pace, more and more web applications will be a mixture of C# (front end) and Java (web services).

Perception is important here. When you choose language for an application, will you survey all the languages out there, no, you don't. You read couple of magazines, attend several seminars (doesn't matter whether you think this is wise, that's the life). What in front of you is a set of limited choices that other people have presented to you. Not to say that, language is just one of those decisions you need to make, how much time are you willing to spend on it?

It is great that people thought/think Perl was/is the de facto language for CGI. However, if this is still the impression today, it becomes a minus, not a plus any more, as CGI is gone.

Perl's future relies on whether it can once again find one or two areas that Perl is the de facto language.

I do not thoroughly agree with you. But if nothing else, from quite a few articles I could read here at PM, there seems to be a certain consensus among part of the Perl community about your concerns. I wanted to cite some such article, but I couldn't find any easily. Maybe some of you may have ready references...

I'm not sure I understand why people want to compare Perl to Java and C++ in this thread. The OP was talking about web applications. The languages of interactive web applications are Perl, PHP, ASP and to a limited but growing extent Flash.

When I first got into the computer biz in 1995 (Later in the dot.com boom I limited myself to websites), perl was the only choice for interactive web pages. Shortly after that, there was a lot of hype about Java solving all of our cross platform issues. Well Java fizzled. The virtual machine was slow and clunky and it was faster to download a new webpage with a 28k modem than use Java. There's still a lot of hype, but only a select few use it. Java is better suited at building desktop applications like OpenOffice not web applications.

At the end of the first round of Java hype is when I first heard about PHP and ASP.

PHP was very Perlish and ASP was the evil Microsoft's alternative. Of course you can guess which one I learned. I don't think anyone thinks Perl is the language for web applications any more. PHP and ASP are the de facto standards now.

Why did this happen? For the same reason that Java didn't become a web application language. These are niche languages. PHP and ASP ae both designed for web applications and database integration. Perl is a much more generalized language better for handling all sorts of weird backend things. That said, with Apache if you add mod_perl and ePerl, you've got something is almost as good as PHP. It's not that Perl has any serious problems, it's that PHP and ASP are niche languages are are designed to do one thing extremely well.

Somewhere at the beginning of the dot.com boom, I heard of flash. Like Java there was a lot of hype. However unlike Java once you got past the hype there was nothing there. Oddly enough Flash is exactly what corporate execs like. Lots of pretty stuff with no information. It stayed. It is evolving too. Taking a look at it years later, I can say it is now a serious contender at replacing PHP, ASP.NET, and Perl as the lingua franca of web applications. Flash will corner the market on webgames. It seems very well suited to that. However there is a growing trend of doing website entirely in Flash. If this trend continues, Flash will supplant both PHP and ASP. Again this isn't a case of Flash being better than Perl or Perl having any inherent weaknesses. It is that Flash is designed to do one thing extremely well.

Am I happy about this? No I can't stand Flash. I like the fact that Perl can handle any number of tasks. However specialization is the name of the game. You have to find your niche. If anything that is Perl's problem, it is too general and can do too much (sorta like when you go for a job interview and are told you are overqualified).

Should perl change? That's really not up to me. ;-) I hope not. Any movement to make it into a niche language I think is doomed to failure. You have to go with your strengths. In Perl's case it is being able to do most anything - maybe not the fastest, bestest, or most logical, but that is what Perl is. Perl is not a niche language and should not become one.

Taking a look at it years later, I can say it is now a serious contender at replacing PHP, ASP.NET, and Perl as the lingua franca of web applications.

Incidentally... Gawd!! I heartily hope not so. Maybe it's just me, but I plainly can't stand it, period. I find that whatever it could be used for, it is actually still used for (supposedly) "pretty stuff with no information".

Well Java fizzled. The virtual machine was slow and clunky and it was faster to download a new webpage with a 28k modem than use Java. There's still a lot of hype, but only a select few use it. Java is better suited at building desktop applications like OpenOffice not web applications.

I think you're too quick to dismiss the popularity of Java web application frameworks like WebLogic, WebSphere, Geronimo, etc. And OpenOffice is (mostly) not written in Java.

Don't compare Perl with Java, compare Perl users with Java users. The less attraction the language has, or the less positive perception it has, the less people come to the language. Less people then results less good people.

Allow me to be straight, one problem with Perl users, or at least what I have seen on this forum is that, lots of them have their eyes closed, and don't know the beautiful things going on outside. I am not saying that this is true to everyone, but quite a lot. It is fine to defend Perl, especially with the nature of the forum. But if people defend everything about Perl, good or bad, that is suicide.

Then enlighten us! What beautiful things are you talking about. And please tell us something about yourself and your wide open eyes. Like ... what programming languages have you used? Or at least tried? Sounds like C and Java and that's about it.

Jenda


XML sucks. Badly. SOAP on the other hand is the most powerfull vacuum pump ever invented.

One of the problem with Perl community, not just about this forum, is that most of the Perl users are rookies, and some are not even professional. I am not saying that there is no seasoned coders like Perl, there are, but not many.

Perception is very important. If I am professional and new to Perl, I came to a forum like this, and saw most of the questions are more textbook alike, what should my impression be?

Now with those seasoned Perl programmers, to be honest with you, lots of them have style problems. They don't use the language in a modern way.

If you were a professional you would know that most questions always come from the least seasoned. This site is open to everyone, it's not an elitist club. You don't have to pass a test to enter. Yes, the ever repeating textbook questions are annoying, but they have to be expected.

Jenda


XML sucks. Badly. SOAP on the other hand is the most powerfull vacuum pump ever invented.

The best way to deal with the trolls you put here, is to leave your trolls unreplied, and let you feel chocked. Bye, dear, you only got one reply for your four balloons filled with hot air, but I got 4 answers out of my 5 posts.

Talk, don't shout. Let me try to shout at you: your signature is VERY anonying, lol.