Re^6: Programming Department

there’s really no excuse not to do it.

I don't need an excuse, I have plenty of reasons.

It is not (only) using EU::MM that is the problem, it is what it produces once you get the incantations correct.
The makefiles it produces are unintelligible(* see below for an example).
I have no idea how to add extra C compiler switches (disable certain warnings /wd<n> or to produce assembler files /Fa<file> or... ) to this mess.
I have projects that use compilers other than a C compiler...how do you integrate those into this mess?
The same goes for any number of other tools that I use whilst developing and testing that simply do not fit into the EU::MM/M::B/other way of operation. Documentation tools; graphics file conversion tools, etc., etc.
The directory structure imposed by these tools does not accommodate me. Storing source files in a directory called ./lib?
For the OP, if his shop is producing web sites for customers, he probably has in-house common elements used as a part of multiple customers projects. He may have multiple projects per customer. There are likely common code elements across customer projects.
Trying to force fit all these into the directory structures required by these build tools is insanity.
And having to copy files from whatever directory structure is appropriate for his development process, to a completely different structure in order to accommodate a packager--for most pure perl projects nothing more that a glorified file copying routine that could in many cases be done (easily and cleanly and understandably) by 5 or ten lines of batch file--make no sense either.
Meta question. Can anyone explain to me why the source files start in one place, get copied to another place before being finally copied to where they should have been put in the first place?

If for you, project equals a perl module, then it may make some sense, but otherwise, none at all.

And from what I have seen of the alternatives to EU::MM, be it M::B, or M::I and others, they simply add extra layers on top of the underlying problems. You simply end up with the same unintelligible mess of a make file, but you are now an extra layer (or two) removed from how it is produced. The inputs may be simpler (looking), and if what they produce does all you need it to do, then that's great. But if it doesn't, if you need to modify it, or add to it, your even worse off than with EU::MM. You now have to plunder your way through an extra layer of documentation, and an extra layer of metafiles, boiler-plate include files, and heavily nested "OO" layers trying to work out where you need to make what change in order to affect the makefile that gets produced.

If that is your idea of heaven, good luck to you.

# This Makefile is for the Bit::Vector extension to perl.
#
# It was generated automatically by MakeMaker version
# 6.17 (Revision: 1.133) from the contents of
# Makefile.PL. Don't edit this file, edit Makefile.PL instead.
#
#       ANY CHANGES MADE HERE WILL BE LOST!
#
#   MakeMaker ARGV: ()
#
#   MakeMaker Parameters:

#     NAME => q[Bit::Vector]
#     OBJECT => q[$(O_FILES)]
#     PREREQ_PM => { Carp::Clan=>q[5.3] }
#     VERSION_FROM => q[Vector.pm]
#     dist => { COMPRESS=>q[gzip -9], SUFFIX=>q[gz] }

# --- MakeMaker post_initialize section:


# --- MakeMaker const_config section:

# These definitions are from config.sh (via c:/Perl/lib/Config.pm)

# They may have been overridden via Makefile.PL or on the command line
AR = lib
CC = cl
CCCDLFLAGS =  
CCDLFLAGS =  
DLEXT = dll
DLSRC = dl_win32.xs
LD = link
LDDLFLAGS = -dll -nologo -nodefaultlib -debug -opt:ref,icf  -libpath:"
+c:\Perl\lib\CORE"  -machine:x86
LDFLAGS = -nologo -nodefaultlib -debug -opt:ref,icf  -libpath:"c:\Perl
+\lib\CORE"  -machine:x86
LIBC = msvcrt.lib
LIB_EXT = .lib
OBJ_EXT = .obj
OSNAME = MSWin32
OSVERS = 4.0
RANLIB = rem
SITELIBEXP = c:\Perl\site\lib
SITEARCHEXP = c:\Perl\site\lib
SO = dll
EXE_EXT = .exe
FULL_AR = 
VENDORARCHEXP = 
VENDORLIBEXP = 


# --- MakeMaker constants section:
AR_STATIC_ARGS = cr
DIRFILESEP = ^\
NAME = Bit::Vector
NAME_SYM = Bit_Vector
VERSION = 6.4
VERSION_MACRO = VERSION
VERSION_SYM = 6_4
DEFINE_VERSION = -D$(VERSION_MACRO)=\"$(VERSION)\"
XS_VERSION = 6.4
XS_VERSION_MACRO = XS_VERSION
XS_DEFINE_VERSION = -D$(XS_VERSION_MACRO)=\"$(XS_VERSION)\"
INST_ARCHLIB = blib\arch
INST_SCRIPT = blib\script
INST_BIN = blib\bin
INST_LIB = blib\lib
INST_MAN1DIR = blib\man1
INST_MAN3DIR = blib\man3
MAN1EXT = 1
MAN3EXT = 3
INSTALLDIRS = site
DESTDIR = 
PREFIX = 
PERLPREFIX = c:\Perl
SITEPREFIX = c:\Perl\site
VENDORPREFIX = 
INSTALLPRIVLIB = $(PERLPREFIX)\lib
DESTINSTALLPRIVLIB = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLPRIVLIB)
INSTALLSITELIB = $(SITEPREFIX)\lib
DESTINSTALLSITELIB = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLSITELIB)
INSTALLVENDORLIB = 
DESTINSTALLVENDORLIB = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLVENDORLIB)
INSTALLARCHLIB = $(PERLPREFIX)\lib
DESTINSTALLARCHLIB = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLARCHLIB)
INSTALLSITEARCH = $(SITEPREFIX)\lib
DESTINSTALLSITEARCH = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLSITEARCH)
INSTALLVENDORARCH = 
DESTINSTALLVENDORARCH = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLVENDORARCH)
INSTALLBIN = $(PERLPREFIX)\bin
DESTINSTALLBIN = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLBIN)
INSTALLSITEBIN = c:\Perl\bin
DESTINSTALLSITEBIN = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLSITEBIN)
INSTALLVENDORBIN = 
DESTINSTALLVENDORBIN = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLVENDORBIN)
INSTALLSCRIPT = $(PERLPREFIX)\bin
DESTINSTALLSCRIPT = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLSCRIPT)
INSTALLMAN1DIR = none
DESTINSTALLMAN1DIR = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLMAN1DIR)
INSTALLSITEMAN1DIR = C:\Perl\site\man\man1
DESTINSTALLSITEMAN1DIR = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLSITEMAN1DIR)
INSTALLVENDORMAN1DIR = 
DESTINSTALLVENDORMAN1DIR = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLVENDORMAN1DIR)
INSTALLMAN3DIR = none
DESTINSTALLMAN3DIR = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLMAN3DIR)
INSTALLSITEMAN3DIR = C:\Perl\site\man\man3
DESTINSTALLSITEMAN3DIR = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLSITEMAN3DIR)
INSTALLVENDORMAN3DIR = 
DESTINSTALLVENDORMAN3DIR = $(DESTDIR)$(INSTALLVENDORMAN3DIR)
PERL_LIB = c:\Perl\lib
PERL_ARCHLIB = c:\Perl\lib
LIBPERL_A = libperl.lib
FIRST_MAKEFILE = Makefile
MAKEFILE_OLD = $(FIRST_MAKEFILE).old
MAKE_APERL_FILE = $(FIRST_MAKEFILE).aperl
PERLMAINCC = $(CC)
PERL_INC = C:\Perl\lib\CORE
PERL = C:\Perl\bin\perl.exe
FULLPERL = C:\Perl\bin\perl.exe
ABSPERL = $(PERL)
PERLRUN = $(PERL)
FULLPERLRUN = $(FULLPERL)
ABSPERLRUN = $(ABSPERL)
PERLRUNINST = $(PERLRUN) "-I$(INST_ARCHLIB)" "-I$(INST_LIB)"
FULLPERLRUNINST = $(FULLPERLRUN) "-I$(INST_ARCHLIB)" "-I$(INST_LIB)"
ABSPERLRUNINST = $(ABSPERLRUN) "-I$(INST_ARCHLIB)" "-I$(INST_LIB)"
PERL_CORE = 0
PERM_RW = 644
PERM_RWX = 755

MAKEMAKER   = c:/Perl/lib/ExtUtils/MakeMaker.pm
MM_VERSION  = 6.17
MM_REVISION = 1.133

# FULLEXT = Pathname for extension directory (eg Foo/Bar/Oracle).
# BASEEXT = Basename part of FULLEXT. May be just equal FULLEXT. (eg O
+racle)
# PARENT_NAME = NAME without BASEEXT and no trailing :: (eg Foo::Bar)
# DLBASE  = Basename part of dynamic library. May be just equal BASEEX
+T.
FULLEXT = Bit\Vector
BASEEXT = Vector
PARENT_NAME = Bit
DLBASE = $(BASEEXT)
VERSION_FROM = Vector.pm
OBJECT = $(O_FILES)
LDFROM = $(OBJECT)
LINKTYPE = dynamic

# Handy lists of source code files:
XS_FILES = Vector.xs
C_FILES  = BitVector.c \
    Vector.c
O_FILES  = BitVector.obj \
    Vector.obj
H_FILES  = BitVector.h \
    ToolBox.h
MAN1PODS = 
MAN3PODS = 

# Where is the Config information that we are using/depend on
CONFIGDEP = $(PERL_ARCHLIB)$(DIRFILESEP)Config.pm $(PERL_INC)$(DIRFILE
+SEP)config.h

# Where to build things
INST_LIBDIR      = $(INST_LIB)\Bit
INST_ARCHLIBDIR  = $(INST_ARCHLIB)\Bit

INST_AUTODIR     = $(INST_LIB)\auto\$(FULLEXT)
INST_ARCHAUTODIR = $(INST_ARCHLIB)\auto\$(FULLEXT)

INST_STATIC      = $(INST_ARCHAUTODIR)\$(BASEEXT)$(LIB_EXT)
INST_DYNAMIC     = $(INST_ARCHAUTODIR)\$(DLBASE).$(DLEXT)
INST_BOOT        = $(INST_ARCHAUTODIR)\$(BASEEXT).bs

# Extra linker info
EXPORT_LIST        = $(BASEEXT).def
PERL_ARCHIVE       = $(PERL_INC)\perl58.lib
PERL_ARCHIVE_AFTER = 


TO_INST_PM = Vector.pm \
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    lib/Bit/Vector/Overload.pod \
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    lib/Bit/Vector/String.pod

PM_TO_BLIB = lib/Bit/Vector/Overload.pm \
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    $(INST_LIB)\Bit\Vector.pm \
    lib/Bit/Vector/String.pod \
    blib\lib\Bit\Vector\String.pod \
    lib/Bit/Vector/Overload.pod \
    blib\lib\Bit\Vector\Overload.pod \
    Vector.pod \
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XSUBPP = $(XSUBPPDIR)/xsubpp
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# --- MakeMaker tools_other section:
CHMOD = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e chmod
CP = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e cp
MV = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e mv
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NOECHO = @
RM_F = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e rm_f
RM_RF = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e rm_rf
TEST_F = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e test_f
TOUCH = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Command -e touch
UMASK_NULL = umask 0
DEV_NULL = > NUL
MKPATH = $(PERLRUN) "-MExtUtils::Command" -e mkpath
EQUALIZE_TIMESTAMP = $(PERLRUN) "-MExtUtils::Command" -e eqtime
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ECHO_N = $(PERLRUN)  -e "print qq{@ARGV}"
UNINST = 0
VERBINST = 0
MOD_INSTALL = $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Install -e "install({@ARGV}, '$(V
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DOC_INSTALL = $(PERLRUN) "-MExtUtils::Command::MM" -e perllocal_instal
+l
UNINSTALL = $(PERLRUN) "-MExtUtils::Command::MM" -e uninstall
WARN_IF_OLD_PACKLIST = $(PERLRUN) "-MExtUtils::Command::MM" -e warn_if
+_old_packlist


# --- MakeMaker makemakerdflt section:
makemakerdflt: all
    $(NOECHO) $(NOOP)


# --- MakeMaker dist section:
TAR = tar
TARFLAGS = cvf
ZIP = zip
ZIPFLAGS = -r
COMPRESS = gzip -9
SUFFIX = gz
SHAR = shar
PREOP = $(NOECHO) $(NOOP)
POSTOP = $(NOECHO) $(NOOP)
TO_UNIX = $(NOECHO) $(NOOP)
CI = ci -u
RCS_LABEL = rcs -Nv$(VERSION_SYM): -q
DIST_CP = best
DIST_DEFAULT = tardist
DISTNAME = Bit-Vector
DISTVNAME = Bit-Vector-6.4


# --- MakeMaker macro section:


# --- MakeMaker depend section:


# --- MakeMaker cflags section:

CCFLAGS = -nologo -Gf -W3 -MD -Zi -DNDEBUG -O1 -DWIN32 -D_CONSOLE -DNO
+_STRICT -DHAVE_DES_FCRYPT -DNO_HASH_SEED -DPERL_IMPLICIT_CONTEXT -DPE
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OPTIMIZE = -MD -Zi -DNDEBUG -O1
PERLTYPE = 
MPOLLUTE = 


# --- MakeMaker const_loadlibs section:

# Bit::Vector might depend on some other libraries:
# See ExtUtils::Liblist for details
#
LDLOADLIBS =   oldnames.lib kernel32.lib user32.lib gdi32.lib winspool
+.lib  comdlg32.lib advapi32.lib shell32.lib ole32.lib oleaut32.lib  n
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LD_RUN_PATH = 


# --- MakeMaker const_cccmd section:
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# --- MakeMaker post_constants section:


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# --- MakeMaker special_targets section:
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.PHONY: all config static dynamic test linkext manifest



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.c.s:
    $(CCCMD) -S $(CCCDLFLAGS) "-I$(PERL_INC)" $(PASTHRU_DEFINE) $(DEFI
+NE) $*.c

.c$(OBJ_EXT):
    $(CCCMD) $(CCCDLFLAGS) "-I$(PERL_INC)" $(PASTHRU_DEFINE) $(DEFINE)
+ $*.c

.cpp$(OBJ_EXT):
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+ $*.cpp

.cxx$(OBJ_EXT):
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.cc$(OBJ_EXT):
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+ $*.cc


# --- MakeMaker xs_c section:

.xs.c:
    $(PERLRUN) $(XSUBPP) $(XSPROTOARG) $(XSUBPPARGS) $(XSUBPP_EXTRA_AR
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# --- MakeMaker xs_o section:


# --- MakeMaker top_targets section:
all :: pure_all
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subdirs :: $(MYEXTLIB)
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config :: $(FIRST_MAKEFILE) $(INST_LIBDIR)$(DIRFILESEP).exists
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config :: $(INST_ARCHAUTODIR)$(DIRFILESEP).exists
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config :: $(INST_AUTODIR)$(DIRFILESEP).exists
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$(INST_AUTODIR)\.exists :: C:\Perl\lib\CORE\perl.h
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# --- MakeMaker linkext section:

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# --- MakeMaker dlsyms section:

Vector.def: Makefile.PL
    $(PERLRUN) -MExtUtils::Mksymlists \
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# --- MakeMaker dynamic section:

dynamic :: $(FIRST_MAKEFILE) $(INST_DYNAMIC) $(INST_BOOT)
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# --- MakeMaker dynamic_bs section:
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$(BOOTSTRAP): $(FIRST_MAKEFILE) $(BOOTDEP) $(INST_ARCHAUTODIR)$(DIRFIL
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# --- MakeMaker static_lib section:
$(INST_STATIC): $(OBJECT) $(MYEXTLIB) $(INST_ARCHAUTODIR)$(DIRFILESEP)
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# --- MakeMaker manifypods section:

POD2MAN_EXE = $(PERLRUN) "-MExtUtils::Command::MM" -e pod2man "--"
POD2MAN = $(POD2MAN_EXE)


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# --- MakeMaker processPL section:


# --- MakeMaker installbin section:


# --- MakeMaker subdirs section:

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# --- MakeMaker clean_subdirs section:
clean_subdirs :
    $(NOECHO) $(NOOP)


# --- MakeMaker clean section:

# Delete temporary files but do not touch installed files. We don't de
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# the Makefile here so a later make realclean still has a makefile to 
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clean :: clean_subdirs
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# --- MakeMaker metafile section:
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    $(NOECHO) $(ECHO) "#XXXXXXX This is a prototype!!!  It will change
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    $(NOECHO) $(ECHO) "name:         Bit-Vector" >> META.yml
    $(NOECHO) $(ECHO) "version:      6.4" >> META.yml
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    $(NOECHO) $(ECHO) "generated_by: ExtUtils::MakeMaker version 6.17"
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# --- MakeMaker metafile_addtomanifest section:
metafile_addtomanifest:
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# --- MakeMaker dist_core section:

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+\
      -e "print(qq{Executing $(RCS_LABEL) ...\n}); system(qq{$(RCS_LAB
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# --- MakeMaker install section:

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pure_site_install ::
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doc_perl_install ::
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doc_site_install ::
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doc_vendor_install ::
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# --- MakeMaker makefile section:

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# We take a very conservative approach here, but it's worth it.
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# --- MakeMaker staticmake section:

# --- MakeMaker makeaperl section ---
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TEST_TYPE=test_$(LINKTYPE)
TEST_FILE = test.pl
TEST_FILES = t\00____version.t t\01________new.t t\02____destroy.t t\0
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testdb :: testdb_$(LINKTYPE)

test :: $(TEST_TYPE)

test_dynamic :: pure_all
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testdb_dynamic :: pure_all
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# Creates a PPD (Perl Package Description) for a binary distribution.
ppd:
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# --- MakeMaker pm_to_blib section:

pm_to_blib: $(TO_INST_PM)
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# --- MakeMaker selfdocument section:


# --- MakeMaker postamble section:


# End.
[download]

Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.

Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?

"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".

In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

Comment on Re^6: Programming Department Select or Download Code

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^7: Programming Department by adrianh (Chancellor) on Jan 16, 2006 at 12:28 UTC
It is not (only) using EU::MM that is the problem, it is what it produces once you get the incantations correct. The makefiles it produces are unintelligible( see below for an example).* I agree. Which is why I use Module::Build and avoid all that tedious mucking about with make files completely. I have projects that use compilers other than a C compiler...how do you integrate those into this mess? With M::B I just write new dependencies, actions, etc. in a nice subclass. The directory structure imposed by these tools does not accommodate me. Storing source files in a directory called ./lib? For perl files this doesn't bother me at all personally. However, if it did, I'd just tweak M::B so it looked somewhere else. For non Perl files I can stick them in whatever directories I like and tweak M::B appropriately. Trying to force fit all these into the directory structures required by these build tools is insanity. With EU::MM it can be a pain I agree. With M::B I've found it quite pleasant. And from what I have seen of the alternatives to EU::MM, be it M::B, or M::I and others, they simply add extra layers on top of the underlying problems. You simply end up with the same unintelligible mess of a make file, but you are now an extra layer (or two) removed from how it is produced. For M::B at least this is untrue. There is no Makefile. The installation process is handled by a pure perl program that is very tweakable. I'm curious - what do you use for your automated build/install processes?	[reply]
Re^7: Programming Department by adamk (Chaplain) on Jan 19, 2006 at 06:56 UTC
Meta question. Can anyone explain to me why the source files start in one place, get copied to another place before being finally copied to where they should have been put in the first place? Well, basically you start with source files in lib. The make process "compiles" these into blib/lib (platform neutral) and blib/arch (architecture-specific). In ordinary pure-Perl modules this can look a little odd. For modules with C-code or that uses File::ShareDir and other things, the blib/lib and blib/arch file carry some significance. Specifically, when make test runs, the tests are run against the "compiled" modules and not against the original source files. Things like autosplit/etc also make use of these techniques. Then when you install the built files in blib are copied to the relevant places in the underlying system.	[reply]