in reply to Re^3: RFC: IPerl - Interactive Perl ( read-eval-print loop ) (-de_)
in thread RFC: IPerl - Interactive Perl ( read-eval-print loop )

Try using "my" in a REPL and you won't fair any better.

Yes, I'll admit, that was quite stupid on my part.

... one would likely quite quickly find "x" which is all that is needed to make "perl -dex" a REPL.

Hmm, not sure if "perl -dex" is really a REPL now. The E in REPL standing for eval, but then oddly enough this code, when placed in a script and evaluated by perl, fails with many errors.

#!/usr/bin/perl x @foo= 1..10; x "@foo";

But why bother when one can instead spend that time composing a node to demonstrate how little one knows about the debugger and how uninterested one is in learning more. :)

I will freely admit I know little about the debugger, and that I am extremely uninterested in learning more about it. But that's not what the OP is talking about, he asked about a REPL, which I still maintain the debugger is very much not.

A REPL is useful for experimenting. A debugger is also useful for experimenting but is even more useful for experimenting in the context of the middle of some script or module code.

I agree a REPL is useful for experimenting, but thats a very limited view of REPLs (strangly similar to my limited view of the Perl debugger ;). A good REPL will allow experimentation within the context of a script and/or module as well, I am not sure about Ruby and Python, but the LISP, OCaml and Haskell REPLs all allow that very easily. And the OCaml REPL is even useful as a documentation tool as well. Here is an example I did just today:

Objective Caml version 3.09.3 # module L = List;; module L : sig val length : 'a list -> int val hd : 'a list -> 'a val tl : 'a list -> 'a list val nth : 'a list -> int -> 'a val rev : 'a list -> 'a list val append : 'a list -> 'a list -> 'a list val concat : 'a list list -> 'a list (* ... bunch of functions removed here ... *) val merge : ('a -> 'a -> int) -> 'a list -> 'a list -> 'a list end
By aliasing the List module I was able to get the OCaml REPL to print out the signature of the module (yes, it's a little difficult to read if you don't know OCaml, but if you do, then it's extremely informative).

As best I could tell, the closest thing in the Perl debugger is doing this:

S Foo::Bar
the output of which is not nearly as informative, but that's not the Perl debuggers fault since Perl subs don't have type signatures.

I also use the OCaml REPL regularly while developing a module to do exactly what you did with Win32:: and the Perl debugger. Here is another example session from the other day:

# #use "tree.ml";; module Tree : sig type 'a tree = { node : 'a; mutable parent : 'a tree option; mutable children : 'a tree list; } val create : ?children:'a tree list -> ?parent:'a tree -> 'a -> 'a + tree val is_leaf : 'a tree -> bool val is_root : 'a tree -> bool val get_depth : 'a tree -> int val add_child : 'a tree -> 'a tree -> unit val add_sibling : 'a tree -> 'a tree -> unit val child_count : 'a tree -> int val get_child : 'a tree -> at:int -> 'a tree val size : 'a tree -> int val traverse : 'a tree -> ('a tree -> 'b) -> unit val string_of_tree : ?buffer:int -> string tree -> string val tree_of_string : ?node_converter:('a -> 'a) -> line_parser:(string -> int * 'b tree) -> source:in_channel -> tree_root:'b tree -> unit -> 'b tree end # print_string ( Tree.string_of_tree (Tree.create "root" ~children:[ Tree.create "1.0" ~children:[ Tree.create "1.1"; Tree.create "1.2"; Tree.create "1.3" ~children:[ Tree.create "1.3.1"; ]; Tree.create "1.4"; ]; ]) );; 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.3.1 1.4 - : unit = () #
You will notice a couple very nice aspects such as: Anyway, enough of this, there is very little you could say to convince me that the Perl debugger is a even halfway decent REPL tool. A good REPL is a powerful, and easy to use tool which is useful above and beyond simple experimentation. The Perl debugger on the other hand does not allow you write code without debugger commands sprinkled within it, and it's default output tends to skew towards ugly and only somewhat informative (to coax more from it you have to dip into those "arcane" commands again). A quality Perl REPL, which used Perl's extensive reflective capabilities to display informative output and allowed much cleaner code testing would be a welcome addition to CPAN IMO.

-stvn

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^5: RFC: IPerl - Interactive Perl ( read-eval-print loop ) (-de_)
by EvanK (Chaplain) on Feb 08, 2007 at 16:06 UTC
    You do make some valid points, but I take exception with the following:
    A good REPL is a powerful, and easy to use tool which is useful above and beyond simple experimentation. The Perl debugger on the other hand does not allow you write code without debugger commands sprinkled within it
    using the debugger in this context doesnt require a single debugger command. the x command mentioned in the nodes above helps to print out simple data structures, but that can just as well be accomplished using plain old print statements or (a method I'm fond of) the Data::Dumper module.

    Just my $0.02

    __________
    Systems development is like banging your head against a wall...
    It's usually very painful, but if you're persistent, you'll get through it.

      using the debugger in this context doesnt require a single debugger command. the x command mentioned in the nodes above helps to print out simple data structures, but that can just as well be accomplished using plain old print statements or (a method I'm fond of) the Data::Dumper module.

      True, however, at that point you still have a very weak, and overly "manual" REPL compared to the standard out-of-the-box REPLs in other langauges.

      Honestly, I am not trying to slight the debugger. I don't prefer to use it myself, but it is a valuable too for those who do use it. However, it is really just not a decent REPL, a fact which becomes more and more clear once you have spent a decent amount of time with a truely nice REPL.

      -stvn