Wikipedia's abstract is a good summary of the second system effect, but really anyone doing any non-trivial programming should have read The Mythical Man-Month (ISBN 0201835959).

Perl 6 is too much like Java

How so?

(Etc.)

You misunderstand. duff is not presenting a list of his own objections, he's collecting objections he's seen other people make.

Well, what you say makes sense, but...

I've seen various people bash perl 6 for a variety of reasons. Some of the ones I can think of right off are

From this, I really can't say if duff is presenting what he believes are reasons for people to bash Perl 6 or if those are the reasons those people invoke... Maybe it's my English...

duff, could you please shed some light? :-)

If what jdporter says is correct, I apologize :-)

jdporter is correct. I guess I should have left in the paragraph where I mention that I've consumed the Perl 6 Kool-aid and have been keeping close watch on Perl's future (beyond 5.x) since before Perl 6 even existed (Who else remembers Topaz? :-)

No worries though.

duff

Perl 6 is too much like Java
How so?
(Etc.)

You misunderstand. duff is not presenting a list of his own objections, he's collecting objections he's seen other people make.

Anyway, it's worth asking so. So: how so? Because the dereferencer is now a single dot? Because of Object Orientation pervasiveness? If the latter, then I can think of some other languages that would constitute a better target for a comparison. Anyway which one, apart Perl 6, will have it both just as pervasive and as transpartent, i.e. not invasive, at the same time? For the average user it would probably boil down most of the times to a bare .say in place of an argumentless print. All in all, great job I would say. Yes, even if it's yet unfinished as of now.

And by that you'd be trying to achieve exactly what?

Publicly airing the arguments I see/hear all the time in various forums. I'm interested in what the perl 6 team has to say about it. I hear lots of "Perl 6 sucks", but rarely do I hear the people working on Perl 6 respond. I've been kicking around an idea about doing a "virtual mass interview" and this topic seems relevant given the imminent release of Perl 6 (yes, I believe it is imminent).

I hear lots of "Perl 6 sucks", but rarely do I hear the people working on Perl 6 respond.

Given the choice between "work on useful things" and "put up with someone complaining long enough to have the hope of a chance of responding with facts for the possibility of changing that person's mind", I've decided to work on useful things and occasionally respond with "contributions welcome, complaints not."

An excellent stance to take! Don't change it! :-)

Though, the palpable silence regarding those complaints tends to make Perl 6 seem worse than it is from a community stand point. (Maybe. I'm imagining people complaining about elitism and opaque development practices and what not, but I can't honestly say I've heard that about Perl 6 any more than I've heard it about Perl 5)

duff

Publicly airing the arguments I see/hear all the time in various forums. I'm interested in what the perl 6 team has to say about it. I hear lots of "Perl 6 sucks", but rarely do I hear the people working on Perl 6 respond. I've been kicking around an idea about doing a "virtual mass interview" and this topic seems relevant given the imminent release of Perl 6 (yes, I believe it is imminent).

Good intent, but FWIW I hear all the time lots of "Perl sucks" comments altogether. I don't mind. They're mostly crackpots and trolls. They do suck. Well, their "arguments" do. Now, perhaps an important point is that "professional" freaks apart, there's one such rascal in any of us. At least some of these people may be nice persons and all, in other respects. You'll notice that there's not a common plot; they range from one extreme to the other: there are those guys who fear Perl is not open source enough, and then there's the one who fears its lack of corporate support. (Incidentally I had begun writing this post yesterday, I'm only finishing it now, and in the meantime he popped up with another gem.)

Now, the question is: does the Perl 6 subject matter really tend to feed the troll residing in otherwise respectable and even enthusiast perl coders of any level up to the point of making it emerge? (Well, I know of at least one world famous Perl hacker who last I heard of still was a strong opponent of Perl 6, but I would consider that a case apart and a story of its own.) Your point seems to suggest it does. This thread is an attempt at verifying whether this is actually the case...