Of course the time and work I have to spend to install modules stands in no relation to the time spent and effort put into writing, testing and maintaining just one of the modules I install along with the top-level target, and I am not wanting to be ungrateful; giving back is maybe the strongest reason for hanging out here on PerlMonks. I'd write useful modules myself if I were more brillant and faced problems for which there isn't a module yet on CPAN; or if I could significantly improve existing solutions.

That said, I still hold up the statement

IMHO, hubris beats laziness for module authors, and modules should not depend on other modules if the latter only bring small benefits.

because there are problems with module dependencies; dragonchild has named one - lack of standards - and pointed out the benefit that drawback brings. Off my head (there might be more)

• "you don't have to test them" - part of a sane module install (and of automatic install) is testing, so that pulls in the entire module-author's testing infrastructure as applied on the module
• a chain is only as strong as its weakest part; cpandeps provides a nice view of how and where automatic install might fail
• longer inclusion chains have a hit on performance

Of course, each of those arguments can be wiped away with "Trading their time for yours, how kind of you" without being really countered. For the CGI::Ajax / Class::Accessor example see Re^3: AJAX popup windows - an example.

Well then I look forward to seeing all your "dependency free" modules. Please let us all know how much fun you have re-inventing, debugging, testing and maintaining innumerable small wheels.

You did note the "small benefit" part? I am not arguing for dependency-free modules, but for as little dependencies as possible, which of course is no absolute, but something worth thinking of; and "as possible" has many constraints.

_($_=" "x(1<<5)."?\n".q·/)Oo.  G°\        /
                              /\_¯/(q    /
----------------------------  \__(m.====·.(_("always off the crowd"))."·
");sub _{s./.($e="'Itrs `mnsgdq Gdbj O`qkdq")=~y/"-y/#-z/;$e.e && print}

Of course the time and work I have to spend to install modules stands in no relation to the time spent and effort put into writing, testing and maintaining just one of the modules I install along with the top-level target, and I am not wanting to be ungrateful; giving back is maybe the strongest reason for hanging out here on PerlMonks. I'd write useful modules myself if I were more brillant and faced problems for which there isn't a module yet on CPAN; or if I could significantly improve existing solutions.

If you want something to work on, I'd love to give you either PDF::Template and/or Excel::Template. Or, I could use help working on DBM::Deep on Win32. Or, any of the other 20 really cool module ideas I have rattling around that I simply don't have time to work on. Like Presto. Or PerlGems.

You did note the "small benefit" part? I am not arguing for dependency-free modules, but for as little dependencies as possible, which of course is no absolute, but something worth thinking of; and "as possible" has many constraints.

So, I go ahead and put in a dep on ABC because it saves me half the project. It has a dep on DEF cause that saves it half the project. DEF's author is stupid and has 30 deps. Should I avoid ABC because of that?

---

My criteria for good software:

1. Does it work?
2. Can someone else come in, make a change, and be reasonably certain no bugs were introduced?

DEF's author is stupid and has 30 deps. Should I avoid ABC because of that?

I'd say yes, definitely - if you can afford it. Otherwise the submit to CPAN is questionable. ABC is likely to break (weakest link chain rule) because of DEF. Don't avoid ABC if you can convince its author to not use DEF, or if you can convince the author of DEF of the "less is more" principle. It is your module that's beholden (?) as unusable - even if the fault lies in DEF.

update: I'm checking your modules =~ /${'my aptitude'}/

--shmem

_($_=" "x(1<<5)."?\n".q·/)Oo.  G°\        /
                              /\_¯/(q    /
----------------------------  \__(m.====·.(_("always off the crowd"))."·
");sub _{s./.($e="'Itrs `mnsgdq Gdbj O`qkdq")=~y/"-y/#-z/;$e.e && print}

because there are problems with module dependencies; dragonchild has named one - lack of standards - and pointed out the benefit that drawback brings.

Yes, I agree with dragonchild on that, however TIMTOWTDI is core to the Perl Way of Life and standards are counter to that. Of course TIMTOWTDI is a double edged sword here especially.

You did note the "small benefit" part? I am not arguing for dependency-free modules, but for as little dependencies as possible, which of course is no absolute, but something worth thinking of; and "as possible" has many constraints.

I will say, and I suspect you will agree, that choosing to add dependencies is something that should not be taken lightly. For instance, if the module looks abandoned I will sometimes opt to write it myself because I don't want to depend on something which is unmaintained and might break and mess up my module with it. But a good solid module (like Class::Accessor) can be depended and it used widely enough that I would not even think twice about using it, knowing full well that many people will probably already have it installed.

One of the really great things about Perl is CPAN, and one of the really great things about CPAN (IMO at least) is how much interdependency there is in it. If you take a look at the state of Python, Ruby or even Java modules you will find many more monolithic codebases (although ruby and python are getting better now last I checked). I would submit that this is directly related to the level of tool support to automatically resolve dependencies such as CPAN has. Anyway, just my 2 cents :)

-stvn

I will say, and I suspect you will agree, that choosing to add dependencies is something that should not be taken lightly.

That looks like you understood my rant ;-)

--shmem

_($_=" "x(1<<5)."?\n".q·/)Oo.  G°\        /
                              /\_¯/(q    /
----------------------------  \__(m.====·.(_("always off the crowd"))."·
");sub _{s./.($e="'Itrs `mnsgdq Gdbj O`qkdq")=~y/"-y/#-z/;$e.e && print}