in reply to The behavior is [sic] undefined

I'd like to point out two things about that referenced post:

  1. There were two audiences involved: those with C experience; and those (like the OP) for whom Perl is their first computer language.

    Relying upon knowledge of the specifications of another, more technical language as the explanation of Perl's foibles, is IMO, like telling a child they have synchronous diaphragmatic flutter, when they suffer a bout of a common childhood malady.

  2. The phrase may be "well-known"--in very limited circles--but that does not make it logical, nor especially meaningful.

    It reminds me of those archaic legal phrases that still persist despite that few people ever really understood them, and almost no one does now. Eg. The term "larceny" persists in US legal proceedings, despite that it has long been abolished in the country where it originated.

    Just because an illogical grammatical expression has made it into common(*) use--especially, when that is so only for a restricted audience--does not seem reason enough to perpetuate it when there are better, clearer alternatives.

Strange. It seems that it is often the same people who would complain about the use of obscure Perl syntax, that would perpetuate these kinds of in-the-know phrases.

(*)For some definition of the word:common.

Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
"Too many [] have been sedated by an oppressive environment of political correctness and risk aversion."

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^2: The behavior is [sic] undefined
by JavaFan (Canon) on May 14, 2009 at 10:49 UTC
    A few things.
    • The Perl documentation isn't aimed at small children. It's aimed at adult who are assumed to possess some learning ability. Including the ability to learn what a word or phrase means. (If the don't possess that knowledge, they'll struggle to learn any computer language). Perl documentation is peer-to-peer (or peer-to-soon-to-be-peer). A medical text book would use synchronous diaphragmatic flutter instead of "common childhood malady".
    • undefined behavior is not archaic, nor obscure. Enough people understand and use it that's idiom in its context.
    • If you want to cater for people who would have no idea what "undefined behavior" means, cannot grasp it from the context, and cannot search the web for it, write a patch against perlglossary. That's what it's for.
[reply]
      1. The Perl documentation isn't aimed at small children.

        No. The greater percentage of them will be non-native-English speaking adults without the care-free time & boundless curiosity children have, nor the lack of self-conciousness children exhibit, when they are learning languages.

        Instead, they will have jobs to do, or studies to complete and deadlines to meet. All the social awkwardness, distraction by the illogical, and pre-patterned thinking that means it is 3 to 5 times harder for the average adult to learn a new language than a child.

        What kind of presumptive, jobs-worth, bloody-mindedness does it take to deliberately continue to use an obscure phrase that defies logical analysis and has to be looked up to understand it meaning, when there are other far clearer, logical substitutes?

      2. Enough people understand and use it that's idiom in its context.

        The world:1.0; The Western world:0.2; College educated Western world:0.02; CompSci educated:0.001; Native English-speaking:0.00025. It's not so many really.

        It would be really interesting to know where that phrase originates, because despite the "Perl works like C" reference, it does not appear anywhere in K&R.

        Now there is a piece of clear, straightforward plain-English technical writing. They didn't feel the need to tech-it-up with meaningless linguistic constructs; nor mark their membership of the technocrati with shibboleths.

      3. If you want to cater for people...

        Yeah! That's kinda the point of a self-help learning site like Perlmonks. Helping people.

        Not baffling them with bs; nor highlighting their difference background or education from ours; nor ...

      And I think it was LW himself who set out to make, and continues to want, Perl to be easy to learn.

      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
      In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
[reply]
        It's not so many really.
        Right. Compared to the world population, there aren't many people programming Perl.

        Documentation is catered for Perl programmers. Not the world at large.

[reply]

In Section Meditations