in reply to Re^6: Your main event may be another's side-show. (Coro)
in thread Your main event may be another's side-show.

You've never asked for help. Which makes you a silly billy, because [...] the rest, there is usually a relatively simple workaround.

Yeah, running into a "panic" at step one with trivial amounts of code makes me shy away from putting my full weight on something. A work-around can be a nice thing. Needing a work-around out of the gate when the code hasn't hardly even started being written is all I need to find a different solution. And you not having noticed me asking for help doesn't actually demonstrate much about how much help I have sought or not.

In 8+ years I've never encountered a deadlock with ithreads.

Yeah. iThreads emulate fork(). You don't get deadlocks with just fork() either. When you tie yourself to a framework like iThreads, that is one of the benefits. But since fork() is so much more efficient in memory and CPU than that emulation of it (and is better supported and less buggy), I use the real thing not the emulation.

- tye        

  • Comment on Re^7: Your main event may be another's side-show. (Coro)

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Re^8: Your main event may be another's side-show. (Coro)
by BrowserUk (Patriarch) on Oct 21, 2010 at 20:26 UTC

    Okay. That's what I thought. No real desire to discuss the issues.

    Just another FUD-laden he's-pro-so-I'm-anti rant. You're not as good at them as you used to be.


    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

      I responded to your points. I'm guessing now you wanted me to enumerate some specific problem case I ran into with iThreads. The problems were several (and sometimes dramatic) but none recent. I don't have any handy. I already said I'd try iThreads again on Windows at some point so if you want to paint me as throwing FUD at iThreads, have as much fun as you want with that.

      You started the "I'm anti" "rant" and even promoted it into its own thread so moaning now about having to put up with opposing viewpoints is rather sad.

      Perhaps you have little experience with programming with real threads so much of my exposition is foreign to you? That part is somewhat tangential to scripting with "current" Perl.

      I was speaking in favor of using coroutines and contrasting that approach with other routes that are more commonly (IME) taken instead of late (not just when using Perl). The prior instability of iThreads surely can't have been a mystery to you but also is of little import in what I wrote. (Though, I suspect that, having had to learn the work-arounds early on, you were also less aware how long the embarrassing ease of finding major bugs persisted.)

      In one paragraph I juxtaposed talk of iThreads with talk of real threads which was unfortunate and easily confusing. iThreads are of no interest in the primary cases that lead to me considering Coro because the motivation is reducing process overhead and iThreads add more overhead than fork() would. Their prior instability matters not nor does their lack of deadlocks, only their bloatedness compared to plain old fork() (or just spawning).

      If your "No real desire to discuss the issues" is only in regard to prior bugs in iThreads, then it is unfortunate that you missed almost completely the point and have no interest in discussing any of the other "issues".

      - tye        

        Perhaps you have little experience with programming with real threads ...

        You know that is not the case, so why suggest it might be?

        ... so much of my exposition is foreign to you?

        Not at all. I've seen people get themselves in horrible tangles using threads and semaphores and mutexes in C, assembler Java et al. Indeed, I've done it myself way back when.

        I've also watched the industry trying to 'fix' the problems with ever more complicated locking & exclusion mechanisms: spin locks, recursive mutexes, ever more elaborate deadlock avoidance schemes, with varied and patchy success. But, as I've said many times, the way to avoid these problems, is to not write code that creates the possibility for them in the first place. And that isn't hard to do, even in C or assembler.

        But all this ancient history about a threading in other languages has no bearing on threading as it exists today, in Perl. You might just as well bring up the Pentium bug and cite it as a reason for avoiding floating point math in Perl today.

        ... the motivation is reducing process overhead ...

        Then why use Perl? C carries far less overhead. In assembler you could probably squeeze everything you've ever wanted to do into less than the startup cost of perl(.exe). But it obviously would come at a cost.

        We use Perl because, for all but the most demanding of application environments--embedded systems, maybe trading systems and the like--the trade-off of memory versus programmer productivity is utterly worth it. That is no different to accepting that Perl's hashes are more memory hungry than C++ hash_map. Or Perl's arrays are far more memory hungry than C arrays. The trade is worth it.

        And so it is with ithreads. I have a four core system. There is rarely ever any point in running more than four concurrent threads. And when there is, it is at most 8 or maybe 16.

        Checking the memory consumed by 4 threads: c:\>perl -Mthreads -E"@t= map async(sub{ 1 }),1..4; sleep 100", it comes in at 6.4MB on my 64-bit system.

        For 16 threads: perl -Mthreads -E"@t= map async(sub{ 1 }),1..16; sleep 100" it's 12.6MB

        Checking a bare perl startup c:\>perl, it is 3.2MB.

        So that's between 0.6 & 0.8 MB per thread "overhead". That is a piddling small amount to be worrying about on systems with at least 2GB of memory. And when another 2GB will cost less than half your hourly rate.

        Sure, I can make them use more:>perl -Mthreads -E"$x='x'x1e6; @t= map async(sub{ 1 }),1..16; sleep 100" comes in a 2.6MB per thread.

        But if I do it this way:perl -Mthreads -E"@t= map async(sub{ 1 }),1..16; $x='x'x1e6; sleep 100" it comes back to just 0.7MB per thread.

        Fiddling around trying to intersperse your linear algorithms with sufficient cede points to ensure that they all get a fair shout at the cpu--like trying to manage traffic by adjusting the speeds of all the vehicles so that they miss each other at junctions--for the sake of 1/2 an hours pay? Only to find that 3/4 of your processor cycles are being wasted. That's ... just not the Perlish trade off.

        ... you missed almost completely the point and have no interest in discussing any of the other "issues".

        If by "other issues" you mean Hammer House of Threading Horror stories in other languages, in bygone eras, written with dubious, antiquated coding practices. You're right! I have no interest.

        Likewise, if you want to argue that you can do something using Coro that only uses 5 MB of memory compared to an equivalent threaded solution (written by me!) that used 20MB or even 50MB. Then I again have no interest.

        If you mean trumpted up, hopelessly stacked, utterly meaningless benchmarks of Coro versus ithreads claiming (and utterly failing) to perform a cpu-intensive, mat-mult algorithm--that BTW, runs 1000 times more quickly (than either) when run as straight-forward linear code. I have no interest.

        If you have a real, current case where a Perl program using ithreads has deadlocking issues, or exhibits priority inversion then please post it. I'd be more than please to show you the error of your ways.

        Or even if you have a piece of working Coro code (GUIs and comms. servers excluded), that you think either: cannot easily be done better using threads; or will create deadlocking issues if coded using ithreads; then post it and we can compare solutions.

        In fact, pretty much anything that is Perl and relates to issues with ithreads I am more than willing--even anxious--to explore. With the proviso(*) that it starts and ends with a comparison of working code that we can all run.

        (*)This proviso simply because anything else is just your word versus mine. Your analogy versus mine. Your insults, innuendos and claims versus mine. And we both know where that leads. Exactly nowhere useful.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.