in reply to Free Open Source Everything?

I think the Great Abigail already disliked PerlMonks. Following is a conversation I had with her a couple weeks ago, in the programming channel on freechess.org. (posted with her permission) She gives some of the reasons for not liking this site. This is the condensed version, some comments omitted for brevity.
Channel 88 "Programming": Abigail Aighearach Dargon FriarTuck(C) Gyro( +TM) \ {kelou} mmorris seva toddmf(TM) vek(*) 10 players are in channel 88. Aighearach(88): PerlMonks kicks ass. :) Abigail(88): Really? They don't impress me. Aighearach(88): Why not? Aighearach(88): I have found it to be an excellent place to connect wi +th other \ Perl coders. And it's a lot more friendly than #perl, and so the \ demographic is more representative of the whole. Aighearach(88): I mean, perldoc and CPAN are great, but I like to also + be able \ to discuss efficiency, and some of those More Way[s] To Do It peop +le are \ always talking about. Aighearach(88): What is it missing, Abigail? Abigail(88): Too much trivial stuff, and too much wrong stuff. Aighearach(88): we get people would wouldn't go within 12 \ miles of #perl Abigail(88): And that's a feature? ;-) Aighearach(88): It certainly is. :) Aighearach(88): Having a broad array of viewpoints is allways preferab +le. Aighearach(88): Anyhow, I saw that there was an Abigail acount, I was +hoping \ it was you, and that you would stay. I've heard you say some reall +y \ right-on things in here, and I think you would really be asset to +the \ community. Something to consider, anyway. Abigail(88): If you think I'm not part of the Perl community, then the + \ conclusion ought to be that you don't know anything about the Perl + \ community. Aighearach(88): nonono, I meant the PerlMonks community! Aighearach(88): Yes, that would be exactly the conclusion if it had be +en what \ I meant, I am sorry that I was unclear. Abigail(88): I already contribute to clp.misc, various mailinglists, Y +APC/YAS, \ and #perl. Why join yet another medium, one that has the most horr +ible \ interface you can imagine? All those webboards are truely awkward, + robbing \ you of all the features even bad news and mailreaders give you. Aighearach(88): Well, the great thing about perl monks is that it is \ interactive. If you wrote a non-browser interface, you would get t +he Love \ and Appriciation of all the Perl Monks. Aighearach(88): so far there are just a slew of clients for the "chatt +erbox". Abigail(88): That non-browser interface has existed for 20 years. It's + called \ Usenet. Aighearach(88): hahahaha Aighearach(88): I will assume that was a joke, since you were just tal +king \ about "features." Abigail(88): news readers give me features a webboard doesn't give. An + \ extremely important feature: *not* showing me articles I've alread +y read. Aighearach(88): ah HA! Yes, that is a very important feature indeed! Abigail(88): Another vital one: killfiles. Aighearach(88): What if there was a usenet gateway for it? Would that +make you \ more receptive to participation? Aighearach(88): May I have permission to share you comments on the Per +lMonks \ site? Aighearach(88): s/you/your/ Abigail(88): Perhaps. It certainly won't move me away from it. But the +n, I \ already spend a few hours a day on clp.misc, #perl and the mailing +lists. Abigail(88): I've viewed my opinions on the interface on slashdot and \ use.perl.org (which is yet another slashdot copy-cat). People don' +t agree, \ quoting spam on usenet, while not being bothered by a animated ad +on every \ web page. Aighearach(88): Yeah, I use a proxy to filter the ads. :) Abigail(88): Urg! Perlmonks require me to scroll horizontally! Aighearach(88): Use lynx. ;) Aighearach(88): There is setting for forced code wrapping width, but i +t hasn't \ been extended to all the width problems yet. vroom is adding a lot + of \ features and fixes, so it has been improving. Abigail(88): Ah, the frontpage has an article that gives another reaso +n not to \ like Perlmonks. It indicates it's ok to ask FAQs and to not have r +ead the \ manual. Aighearach(88): No. Aighearach(88): That is an ongoing discussion. Aighearach(88): That main consensus is that the correct response is to + point \ to the documentation in question, rather than flaming the person. Aighearach(88): Guidance, as opposed to stone throwing. Aighearach(88): Not everybody is going to be at the same capability, a +nd \ programming shouldn't be only for the elitists. Abigail(88): Saying RTFM *is* someone pointing to the documentation. ; +-) Aighearach(88): hahaha, RTFM [link] does it. Abigail(88): And besides, reading the manual isn't for elitists. Readi +ng the \ manual is common sense. Whether it is for operating a VCR, driving + a car, \ or programming a language. Aighearach(88): But some people don't even know where the manual IS... + instead \ of kicking them in the shins, and leaving them as lame and clueles +s as \ when they walked in, we try to at least help them get in there. Aighearach(88): Common sense isn't common, though. Dargon(88): I enjoy reading manuals when I become extremely bored. Aighearach(88): Dargon, there is hope for you yet. ;) Dargon(88): *Grin* Abigail(88): Just like that the manual comes with your VCR or your car +. Aighearach(88): I know, but some people don't know it's there! Some pe +ople are \ used to M$ Visual Studio, and crap like that... Aighearach(88): If a forum can a person from the bottom, up to the top +, \ without running off anybody not born with asbestos skin, then it o +f course \ is going to be the idea resource. Abigail(88): *shrug* Still, even if you bother to listen/read in the n +ewsgroup \ or #perl (and hopefully perlmonks) before asking trivial questions +, you \ will be aware there's an excellent manual. Aighearach(88): Yes, but not everybody is the best case. Aighearach(88): As in any field, there is a place for people of all \ skill/intelligence levels. Isn't there? Abigail(88): You are suggesting Perlmonks is aiming at the low end of +the \ scale? ;-) Aighearach(88): hehe, no, I am saying it is aiming to be inclusive. It + is \ aiming to be able to help both the fresh baby coder who doesn't ev +en know \ what RTFM means, and also to help the seasoned coder, who is seeki +ng an \ insight into how x aspect of y module should be used in z context. Dargon(88): Human Intelligence is over rated. Aighearach(88): or at least over stated... Abigail(88): So be it, but all this combined is enough reason for me t +o hardly \ get involved into Perlmonks. I glance over the frontpage every few + days, \ but I read every article on clp.misc (unless my killfile got it) a +nd spend \ a lot of time on #IRC. Abigail(88): s/#IRC/#perl/ Aighearach(88): So if there was any one thing that would make you more + likely \ to use PerlMonks in one form or another, what would it be? Abigail(88): 1) Better interface. 2) More interesting articles. FAQs a +nd \ trivial things that can be found straight in the manual are just a + big \ waste of time (not only from the question itself, but also from al +l the \ wrong answers given by people who haven't read the manual either). Aighearach(88): Thanks. :) BTW, there are lots of interesting articles +... \ maybe a system where the higher level users could mark an article +based on \ the exerience level of the topic might help.
Paris Sinclair    |    4a75737420416e6f74686572
pariss@efn.org    |    205065726c204861636b6572
http://sinclairinternetwork.com

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
(Ovid) RE: RE: Free Open Source Everything?
by Ovid (Cardinal) on Jul 20, 2000 at 23:15 UTC
    As far as I can tell, Abigail doesn't like Perlmonks for two reasons:
    1. She doesn't care to wade through the masses to get to what she values.
    2. The unfinished interface is not to her liking.
    Okay, I'll grant her first point. Personally, I find that a dissapointment as I am clearly a mid-level Perl coder and I suspect that any site that's good enough for me is scraping the bottom of the barrel for her. I lose out on her wisdom, but that is my choice for hanging out here and her choice for not doing so. That's fair enough.

    The second point is ridiculous. Claiming something is flawed but pointedly ignoring the fact that it's beta is ridiculous (yes, I know that she's aware that it's beta. I'm commenting on her not making any allowance for this fact.)

      She has great knowledge, but she guards it closely.

      "Oh, but all data WILL be processed" -- Abigail

      Maybe if we leave an offering under the tree in the moonlight, she will come back.

      Paris Sinclair    |    4a75737420416e6f74686572
      pariss@efn.org    |    205065726c204861636b6572
      http://sinclairinternetwork.com
      
RE: RE: Free Open Source Everything?
by buzzcutbuddha (Chaplain) on Jul 21, 2000 at 21:07 UTC
    Wow. I don't know Abigail, but I trust that she is an incredibly competent programmer, and worth listening to on some issues, but I agree she is very combatent, and I'm frankly disappointed by her tone. Of course we're going to have wrong information. I see that too on the Usenet. Of course, you're going to have newbie questions, I see that on Usenet.

    But PerlMonks has so much more community than any of the Usenet places. That's where I first went when I was learning Perl. I haven't gone back. I mean, if you are an expert, and you want immediate expert answers, maybe you shouldn't come here.

    Call Larry or Email Jarkko or something like that.
Theme?
by Nitsuj (Hermit) on Jul 20, 2000 at 21:21 UTC
    She does soft of have a point. I realize that this is a PERL site, but does that mean that everything has to be server-side CGI so it can be written in PERL? Chatting on IRC is much more elegant than echoing over CGI. Still I like the site and the folks, it's a bit more removed than many communities. I do hate incorrect posts, but when there are enough people with voting rights, this will be easy enough to solve (though it could cause bad blood, ala /.)

    "We're all different!"
    "I'm not"
    -The Life of Brian
      I don't think the incorrect posts are really a problem; there are always more correct posts than incorrect, and people willing to (POLITELY) correct the mistakes. I like the community here, too; time and again, newbies comment about this being the nicest, most helpful Perl community on the web, and I for one hope it stays that way.

      - email Ozymandias
RE: RE: Free Open Source Everything?
by Anonymous Monk on Jul 21, 2000 at 21:47 UTC
    Why don't you remove your lips from Abigails ass and code some Perl?
      HAR HAR HAR

      So this is what AM is for... it all makes sense now. Welcome to /., please enjoy your stay.

      I was way, offbase when I was telling Abigail about this being a friendlier, more inclusive community.

      Hopefully they are previewing AM's IP, and weeding the Trolls.

      Or maybe they are just hoping for divine intervention...

      But given that we can't even hold onto people like Abigail, if it's not a friendly site then that calls for a re-evaluation of Abigail's arguments.

      Paris Sinclair    |    4a75737420416e6f74686572
      pariss@efn.org    |    205065726c204861636b6572
      http://sinclairinternetwork.com
      

        I don't think you are offbase at all. I thought your talk of the site was some of the best explanation of the spirit of this site that I've ever seen. If we ever need a PR rep... :)