in reply to Best age to start learning perl

I remember a speech by Adele Goldberg on a conference about History Of Programming Language; it was about successful experiments to teach Smalltalk to pre-highschool children. You can find about this here: http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/EarlyHistoryST.html#smalltalkAndChildren.

Most responses to your question say: As soon as there is interest. This is certainly (I would almost say: trivially) true, but it applies to the rare cases where a certain bright child starts showing interest, and you are teaching him or her individually. The question of age becomes more serious when you want to offer a teaching for a class of students, i.e., at which age can you expect that a sufficient percentage of children is able to grasp abstractions - assuming here that the necessity of doing some abstract thinking is the biggest stumbling point, even for adults. I still remember when, at the age of 16, our class was the first time exposed to programming. It was an optional subject, and nearly the whole class showed interest and attened. But after a few months, only about 10% were left - it was too difficult for the rest. Nowadays teaching has improved, so I guess the percentage would be much higher now, though.

IMO it makes sense looking where we request abstract thinking in other areas. This can be mathematics, as soon as it leaves pure calculation and introduces concepts such as functions or group theory, and languages as soon as it starts to cover grammatical concepts. For the average student, I guess this means they should be at least 10-12 years, though some very gifted ones might be able to master it earlier.

-- 
Ronald Fischer <ynnor@mm.st>

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Re^2: Best age to start learning perl
by Jenda (Abbot) on May 07, 2009 at 12:05 UTC

    I don't think the teaching improved. The requirements and expectations were lowered. Statistics is the king, everyone wants to have the highest ratio of citizens with university degree, even if it means that the universities have to accept and let finish every alternatively intelligent dude.

    Jenda
    Enoch was right!
    Enjoy the last years of Rome.

      ++ Jenda

      "even if it means that the universities have to accept and let finish every alternatively intelligent dude."

      .....doing Mickey Mouse degree courses

      Students are no more intelligent now than they were 40 years ago, the only difference is the goal posts have been moved.

        Students are no more intelligent now than they were 40 years ago, the only difference is the goal posts have been moved.

        Whilst I agree that kids are no more intelligent today than they were 40 years ago, I have a different take on what constitutes a "useful degree". 'David Beckham Studies' seems trivial (and boring!) to me; and 'Media Studies' doesn't sound like it would stack up against Applied Physics or Chemistry for academic meaningfulness.

        However, if you look at the number of millionaires (as one possible measure of 'success'), that have been 'created' over the last twenty years--at least in most Western societies--far more of them will have achieved that success as a result of being footballers or media types than as physicists or chemists, or all the other 'hard sciences' put together. It's easy to see why, on a purely objective basis of looking around to see the type of careers that are most likely to produce (at least visible) signs of success, that teenagers are opting to 'soft' degrees rather than the hard ones.

        I also question whether the traditional degree subjects actually prepare their recipients for the real world of work any better than the newer Mickey Mouse ones. About half of the time I spent in formal CS education concerned itself with teaching me about dates, people and places involved in the historical background of things like The Jaquard Loom, The Difference Engine, Ada Lovelace and other quite interesting titbits of historically relevant, but otherwise ultimately pretty useless information that had to be rote learnt and regurgitated for the exams, and then discarded from ones mind when you moved out into the workplace where it is completely irrelevant.

        It is also easy to condemn the politicians for opting for 'easy statistics' to "prove that they are taking action" to address the concerns of parents; but you have to remember that it is those parents--seeking the best for their kids--that drive the need for near immediate feedback from the changes they crave, each time they switch governments. With four or five years terms, and the electorate demanding ever increasing standards; exams results and SATS scores are the only way to satisfy them. The trouble is, it takes about 4 or 5 political cycles--20+ years--before you can really measure the effects of changes in the education system by their effects on the success and prosperity of those educated under them. And in that time, you've had four or five changes of government, and four or five changes of tack in the education system; and there is no way to truly attribute ultimate success back to individual changes.

        All of that is further compounded by the fact that the state of knowledge in many areas relevant to modern society are changing faster than ever before--and faster with each passing decade. With new technologies supplanting old ones every other day; and new theories supplanting old ones before the ink is dry on the text books.

        Personally, I think that the whole basis of education is going to have to change. We need to discard the whole tradition of rote learning and regurgitation of (a limited set of) facts and figures.

        The early stages of education should stop concentrating on "the 3 Rs"--calculators do the 'rithmetic; spell-checkers and speech recognition will take care of the 'riting. Instead, those early years should be devoted to teaching: 'How to learn', 'How to research' along with 'how to type' and 'how to use the calculator'.

        And the rest of education should avoid 'teaching', and concentrate on tracking--individually--how individuals progress in their ability to find data; interpret what they find; derive information from that data; and assimilate it in a meaningful way.

        With the boundaries of knowledge expanding ever faster in all directions, someone has to question the value of every kid leaving school knowing that the Romans arrived in Britain in AD43, built a few roads and hypercausts and left 400 years later; or that the Battle of Britain took place in the Summer and Autumn of 1940; or how to derive the quadratic formula from first principles. With the right skills, all of this can be looked up in seconds. Acquiring the right skills is the important bit.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.