I was talking about popularity as a commercial development environment, not as a user environment.

There are a lot more Java coders out there that Perl coders. There are a lot more Java jobs out there than Perl jobs. Remember, there is a lot of non-web related code written in the world ;-)

Perl certification does not exist because it's not economically viable - there are not enough companies out there who want/need one.

(Note: I'm not saying Perl cannot be used in many of the places Java is used now just as successfully. I like Perl. However, at the moment, Java is more popular. I don't think certification will change this one iota.)

I'm sure you are right that more Java programmers are coming out of colleges and more Java jobs are posted. But without real numbers, I'm still not sure there aren't more Perl programmers and more Perl being used in the workplace/tech-office than Java. I really think image is most of the problem and I'm not 100% pro-certificate but I think it *would* help Perl's image.

Eg: I use Perl in my job every day though my job description says nothing about it; it makes my job easier. Every sysadmin, DBA, and C-hacker I know personally uses Perl (and quite a few of the C-hackers dabble in Ruby too). I work in a large company and of the 20 or so tech jobs open right now. Roughly 25% ask for Java and 50% ask for Perl. And even that is HR's misunderstanding of the work to be done. From experience in the office I can tell you that 10% will end up using Java and 80% will use Perl. But even there, where most of the company relies on it every day, there is a misunderstanding about Perl's ubiquity and usefulness.

On a related note, just found this online for Java certification. Passing scores range from 52% to 70%. Hmmmm... The best work you can be guaranteed to get from a certified Java programmer seems to be "C-" work and you just might be getting a solid "F." :)

I'm sure you are right that more Java programmers are coming out of colleges and more Java jobs are posted. But without real numbers, I'm still not sure there aren't more Perl programmers and more Perl being used in the workplace/tech-office than Java.

A quick poke at http://www.monster.com shows a little under three Java adverts for every Perl advert. This doesn't show the whole story since many jobs have "and Perl" tacked in there somewhere - rather than being primarily Perl developers :-(

I don't disagree that Perl is used a huge amount as a tool in the workplace. But in the job market where certification would be an issue it's not as popular as other languages. I don't like it. It's not because Perl can't do the job. But it's true.

I don't think certification will help solve this problem because the lack of Perl certification is not the reason people are rejecting Perl.

I really think image is most of the problem and I'm not 100% pro-certificate but I think it *would* help Perl's image.

I'm not anti Perl certification (beyond the dangers of any certification scheme). I don't think it would do any harm to Perl. I just don't think it would do much good either. Certification is only useful after we've won the fight over Perl perception as a poor language. That's when you'll have enough good Perl developers out there for certification to become a useful recruiting tool.

I like Perl :-) For the last few years I've done the majority of my commercial development work in perl. I've been a Perl evangelist wherever I've worked.

I can't recall a single discussion where "lack of certification" has been an issue.

Eg: I use Perl in my job every day though my job description says nothing about it; it makes my job easier. ...

Me too :-)

... But even there, where most of the company relies on it every day, there is a misunderstanding about Perl's ubiquity and usefulness.

True. But how will certification will solve this problem? I don't think being able to wave a certificate under an employers nose will make them reconsider the relative importance of the language.

On a related note, just found this online for Java certification. Passing scores range from 52% to 70%. Hmmmm... The best work you can be guaranteed to get from a certified Java programmer seems to be "C-" work and you just might be getting a solid "F." :)

Not sure how having a passing score of 52% comes out as an "F". In my experience most people who have passed of Java certification have a reasonable level of ability. It saves me having to spend time and money filtering out the people who put five years of Java on their CV when they mean JavaScript ;-)