And this is different from other proposing showing the actual rep count? I think it can be useful to know what others think about a node (for learning or voting), just not by showing the actual rep.

As I have said more than once in this thread, and Boogman originally said, we're discussing having a "null vote" that shows you the rep in exchange for removing your ability to vote on the node.

but I don't think we should get them before we have voted on the node, or decided that we're not going to vote on it...

The first part of this statement echoes what I have said. When I decide not to vote on a node I don't want to have to vote that I don't want to vote on the node :) I simply think knowing what people are seeing as 'better' posts could be useful for people using the site to learn. Seeing the actual number is not needed to accomplish this. And, seeing a rep count to decide if you will vote on it isn't good voting practice. Why vote because of how others do? Vote on posts based on you're own opinion of that post.

Have you actually been reading my posts?!? I have not, and have never, been arguing that the rep should be constantly shown. All of your arguments have been against that. I have been arguing that the reputation carries some information (i.e. what the other PerlMonks think of the post), and that that information should be conditionally (i.e. sacrifice your vote) available. You've proposed star-schemes and other things that counter your initial argument (the rep shouldn't be known before voting), while ignoring the fact that the rep, as a plain simple number, can have some value. Showing the number would also enable users to pick up on the flaws of the system (e.g. vote inflation over time, etc).

I don't want to have to vote that I don't want to vote on the node :)

And we're just saying that the non-vote would be if you want to see the rep, not that every non-vote requires a actual vote.

As I have said more than once in this thread, and Boogman originally said, we're discussing having a "null vote" that shows you the rep in exchange for removing your ability to vote on the node.

Do you really want to know the rep of nodes this badly? I guess I simply don't understand why. And, how does this help the casual user use and learn from the site?

Have you actually been reading my posts?!?

Amazingly, yes. Maybe I misunderstood some of your issues, or you didn't clearly state them.

You've proposed star-schemes and other things that counter your initial argument

Not at all, the star system would help people decide which posts have been 'deemed' most useful without showing actual vote counts. You can't see the difference (rhetorical)?

Showing the number would also enable users to pick up on the flaws of the system (e.g. vote inflation over time, etc).

I don't care about the flaws, I don't care about the rep of anyones posts, and I don't care about having more ways to vote. I care about usability and the best way for users to find what they are looking for and to find what is most helpful for them to learn. I think adding another way to nullify your vote on a node simply to see it's rep is silly. I haven't seen anyone clearly state what benefits it would have, especially for novices (who have no votes to waste on nullifying votes), or anyone in general. Seems like you just want to see reps without voting ++ or --.

Cheers,
KM

Do you really want to know the rep of nodes this badly? I guess I simply don't understand why. And, how does this help the casual user use and learn from the site?

This happens for a minority of nodes, but nonetheless it happens around once or twice a day.

Have you actually been reading my posts?!?

Amazingly, yes.

Okay, I deserved that :) (I was coming back to remove that line, but you had already replied)

You've proposed star-schemes and other things that counter your initial argument

Not at all, the star system would help people decide which posts have been 'deemed' most useful without showing actual vote counts. You can't see the difference (rhetorical)?

The problem with that is that if you agree that people will "follow the trend" when voting, then the same thing will happen with the star system.

I haven't seen anyone clearly state what benefits it would have, especially for novices (who have no votes to waste on nullifying votes), or anyone in general.

I am not a Perl God. For a great many nodes on this site, I do not know what advice is good. I cannot vote ++ or -- to these nodes without skewing the system. I am nonetheless interested in knowing which of these nodes are better, so that if/when I do need the knowledge, I can start at square 2. Or perhaps I have a question, and I find two or three threads on slightly related topics. How do I know which nodes are best? Which are Good?

I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people out there who would like to learn.

Seems like you just want to see reps without voting ++ or --.

Exactly. Usually in cases where I _shouldn't_ be voting.

It seems to me, at this point, that you are just arguing against this because it is an option that you would never use. Do you actually see anything wrong with letting people who are curious about a node's rep see the rep without changing it? If there is a legitamite reason why this would undermine the voting system in some way, then it definitely shouldn't be put in place. What I think we are proposing though is just an extra option which, if you don't see the need for it, you would never have to use. It would not influence your life at all. It could even be implemented like the Null vote in that you can turn it off in your settings. That way you wouldn't even have to see it. There are defintely options on this site that I don't use and don't see the use of and don't use. That doesn't mean they aren't things other people like having on the site...