in reply to Re^6: New Section: Obfu Art Gallery? (change)
in thread New Section: Obfu Art Gallery?

Thanks for the feedback. I'll just throw this response out rather bluntly.

The other day when I got all stressed out about this in the CB was the last day ill take this pmdev lark seriously enough to get offended by what is or isn't going on. :-) So no worries, I hope likewise.

Actually, I've done that, hmmm, 3(?) times so far. Plus I've tried to do it several more times than that.

I cant really respond to that. All I can say is Ive not seen any god take an active hands on approach to pmdev since ive been a member. As you said, we get flurries of activity when the stars align and a god thinks a patch is interesting and a pmdever has a patch to hand. There certainly hasn't been any sustained working of the group that I can observe.

One of the things that made a real difference was providing more ways for pmdev to test their own code. You probably noticed part of the improvement, but I don't think you noticed a big part of the difference. A bunch of your patches that got applied would still not be applied right now if that hadn't happened.

This is all true. You should also observe that as those patches were applied new patches were forthcoming. :-) I dont think people will commit any kind of sustained effort without continuing feedback, which why the pattern in pmdev has been as it has. Think of Linux or Perl development, there are a core of people who are commiting patches all the time.

By that same argument, since pmdev has no purpose but to propose patches, shouldn't members resign if they haven't proposed a patch recently? (:

Er, I think I should clarify that I meant the patch pumpking role. Not the god role. Presumably if your trusted to be a god then that is sufficient. Im thinking like some of the recent developments in perl porters, where Hugo had to for his own reasons pass on some of his duties. He didnt lose any powers or anything, he just made sure that somebody else was taking care of business as it were.

Yep, that's one of my frustrations with pmdev, they hardly ever comment on each other's code quality, design quality, or provide constructive criticism

I think people would be far happier to do so if the pattern showed that their efforts would result in applied code. But I also agree with your point here. People need to be more critical of each others work.

Oh, you were trying to criticize gods there, weren't you? If only gods do this kind of stuff, then I don't think there will ever be much use for pmdev, we'll just have to keep adding people to gods if we want them to write code (and that won't scale).

I was criticizing both groups and the overall system or lack of one. With respect to the gods (ie you pretty much) there is no clear DONT/DO statement. When I code I have to make certain decisions. Without general policy to follow I just have to go with my gut and hope that whatever tack ive chosen isnt going to be vetoed by the gods. When ive had issues like this ive sometimes /msgd you (or theorbtwo), but more often than not ive just muddled on, and dealt with rewriting certain things when I found out afterwards you didnt approve. As pmdev well, people should be more proactive about commenting on and patching each others patches.

We both said that we didn't see the point...

Well gee. I posted three sets of patches there. One that refactors some duplicate code as well as adds a somewhat wanted feature (folding Re:'s). Another that does something that people have asked for a number of times (full control of arbitrary html in the personal nodelet, as well as PM style linking), and one for myself that I personally wanted (designed to meet a fairly specific set of constraints determined by you). The "constructive criticism" was restricted to two people saying they dont see the point of the one I made for me. (A way to customize the links in the titlebar, similar to the personal nodelet but with special features specially associated with the titlebar.) Not only that, but all three were as tested on the test server as well as they could be. One comment I recieved said "it seemed too complicated at first glance" (referring to the title bar one) without I think considering why it was that way. The nodelet patch was far simpler because it could be. Anyway, im going to repost a simpler version of it later, in the hopes that eventually I'll be able to do what I want to.

I don't really think "I dont see the point" is the greatest criticism. If a contribution does harm, or will materially affect the sites stability or whatever, then fine reject it on those grounds. But just because one doesnt see a need for the feature for oneself doesnt mean that others might not appreciate it. For instance in a lot of ways Id prefer to be able to customize the titlebar than do a personal nodelet. But I posted patches for both. :-)

I've never complained about any one volunteer not doing something fast enough. "I don't ask for schedules from volunteers. It doesn't do any good and it annoys the volunteers."

I accept this on one level for sure. But on another I think I should point out that I'm not asking for something that I wouldn't do myself. Although I can perfectly see myself being in a position where I had to state that I could no longer do so because of other responsibilities.

The solution to pmdev is for pmdev to take ownership of every development challenge related to PerlMonks and demote the gods to mere automatons who simply apply the patches that the pmdev community has designed, considered, discussed, written, tested, and agreed to.

IMO the solution to that is for pmdevers to post their patches in PMD. The general public can consider the code as a whole, as well as what it is meant for. The comments from the general populace would encourage pmdev to come to a consensus.

And I nominate you. Go forth and shepard pmdev. I'm glad you're still fighting.

Thank you. Ill try. Hopefully my choice of signature proves to be prophetic... :-)

However this also means that the discussion and consensus must be followed up by action or itll never work. It also shouldnt need that many people to be involved. If a few participants agree and there are no outright objections then that should be sufficient. Otherwise itll never work. I think for instance that a clear idea of what constitutes a quorum is needed.

so I or other gods can just apply the things instead of having to find an hour or more of time to concentrate on whether the design fits in, will have bad effects in the long run, etc

These are the kind of policy guidelines that we need to know about. As for "does the design fit" well, that will come down to a mixture of things that can either be determined by policy, or are probably more aesthetic judgment calls than anything else and as such should IMO be debated in a wider context. Beyond that all we can say is that our stuff is tested on the test server and doesn't throw errors.

I've usually regretted it and usually ended up spending more time in the end as a result.

Well, one thing that would be cool is some way for you as a god to ensure that the equivelent patches as were here were also applied and current on the test server and didnt prove problematic. Its something I could work on if it seems like a step in the right direction.

Anyway tye I'll keep contributing (by for instance paying for the test server enviornment with corion) as I can and as I enjoy doing so. Id like to take an active role in improving the site and adding features to it because I enjoy doing it, I learn from it, and I like that people enjoy the result. As you said in the CB one time (more or less) "I do it because its fun". If and when I feel that its not worth the effort I'll stop. Given that this is a site of developers I think we should be able to put together an active dev group. But ultimately that requires people willing to apply the patches.

Cheers.


---
demerphq

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
    -- Gandhi

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Re^7: New Section: Obfu Art Gallery? (change)
by tye (Sage) on Apr 23, 2004 at 19:39 UTC
    He didnt lose any powers or anything, he just made sure that somebody else was taking care of business as it were.

    I was never assigned to be pumpking. I was assumed to be pumpking because I tried to apply patches, IMHO. And when I saw that not enough attention was given to the patches, I tried to get others to "take care of business" (and tried to take care of it myself). We can't just assign someone to be 'pumpking' without adding them to gods, because the ability to apply patches makes it trivial to become a god or to just do anything a god can do and even do it in ways that would be quite hard to notice and impossible to track.

    And I don't think it will work to say to someone "here is your throne, but you are only supposed to use it to change the lightbulbs that are too high to reach without the throne" (if you'll excuse the over-the-top analogy). But there's no way to change PerlMonks light bulbs without having a throne to stand on. I'd encourage you to produce a PerlMonks ladder except that I don't think such is reasonably possible.

    But ultimately that requires people willing to apply the patches.

    I'm willing to apply patches. I've applied patches. I will continue to apply patches. It's often going to take a long time for me to apply a patch if I haven't already seen it picked apart and put back together by others. I've only seen that done to a very limited degree so far.

    And you'll get more feedback from me if pmdev starts giving more feedback. It takes more time if I have to bootstrap the discussion and I worry that some counter arguments then don't get made since "the gods have already spoken".

    So you want a chicken and I want a nest of eggs. Which comes first? You have no power to create chickens, so start trying to make eggs. I'll keep working on chickens and eggs as I can.

    I continue to try to find the time, motivation, inspiration to direct pmdev more. When I get such, I offer direction to pmdev. Asking for more isn't likely to improve things much because the reason I'm not doing more isn't due to lack of desire to do so (not that you should stop asking, just don't use "I asked and didn't get" as an excuse for giving up).

    The only thing that gods have to do is apply the patches (because noone else can, not because that can't refuse to, obviously). If you've got the time, motivation, inspiration, then find the people to provide everything else. If you want someone added to pmdev, then nominate them. Someone asking me to put them in pmdev usually requires me to make a difficult decision. Someone already doing good work in pmdev asking for someone else to be added with a good reason makes the decision easy.

    Yes, I know that being in pmdev is hell frustrating. The reason I'm not doing much to fix that is not because I don't appreciate the problem and how silence makes it more frustrating.

    In hind sight, I think part of the reason I haven't steered pmdev more is that much of the time it looked to me like I'd have to do it with the driver's-side door open pushing it. When I see it rolling somewhere, I'm more likely to jump in and steer for a bit.

    Finally, a bit of a side point that I don't want to make a big deal out of but that gets back to this point.

    I don't really think "I dont see the point" is the greatest criticism. If a contribution does harm, or will materially affect the sites stability or whatever, then fine reject it on those grounds. But just because one doesnt see a need for the feature for oneself doesnt mean that others might not appreciate it.

    Who rejected anything? Just because you want something and have yet to find anyone else who expresses a desire for it doesn't make it a priority for me to put at the top of my list. ;) I haven't even looked at that patch... yet. I think both theorbtwo and I liked the idea of just a text box for HTML to be used as an alternate top menu and similar for the personal nodelet. The devil is in the details, of course.

    I wasn't trying to say that you ignored the feedback. I was more noting that I didn't think you gave much weight to the feedback that you did get compared to your demands here for more feedback. It seems to me that you mostly only gave weight to your perception of the patch being rejected.

    But, as I said, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. It was more an observation than a criticism.

    But, in future, one way to get more attention to a patch from me is to have multiple people involved in the design and work on the design to the point that there is a consensus. I'm not saying that will be easy. Posting to the pmdev wiki has a chance of just producing silence in response or non-criticism ("sounds good") or not-that-useful criticism ("what's the point?"). Posting to Perl Monks Discussions, IMHO (both from posting and seeing others post), often doesn't result in great feedback for this type of thing (for example, you often get a lot of dissimilar brainstorms for alternatives that don't fit together).

    But I'm a lot more inclined to steer when I see more than one person behind the vehicle pushing.

    Part of the problem of getting good feedback is that even most members of pmdev don't have a good appreciation for many of the design considerations of PerlMonks. I certainly didn't when I started. Did some chicken shepard me into my current understand? No.

    Would it be nice to have better documentation of technical details, coding standards, design guidelines, gotchas, etc.? Of course! Write some! I'd like to write some, but I can assure you it very little of that will manage to get to the top of my to-do list before you're tired of being in pmdev. We've already got some of this. I think the official pmdev to-do list has been touched just once in the last year.

    Thanks again. It's nice to see you "pushing this car around" (posting these nodes), but these replies have taken too much time so I'm checking out from steering (replying) to concentrate on my day job for a while. (:

    - tye        

[reply]

      I'm willing to apply patches. I've applied patches. I will continue to apply patches. It's often going to take a long time for me to apply a patch if I haven't already seen it picked apart and put back together by others. I've only seen that done to a very limited degree so far.

      tye im sorry to have to say this, but leadership is by example. If thats what you want pmdev to do then you have to do it as well. You have to pick apart some patches and help put them back together. You have to comment on them so that we see what you have in mind. Also what you want pmdev to do with their patches should apply to you and the other gods code. You guys shouldnt be modifying code and applying it without it going through the _same_ scrutiny, by pmdev, as you expect pmdev to go through with their own stuff. If this doesnt happen then your expectations are in vain. Nobody in pmdev will do stuff that you yourself dont want to do.

      You see, my problem with this situation is that without these posts pmdev would have _no_ idea what was required to get things going. You want us to do all sorts of review and debate and collaborative development, but you havent demonstrated how it should work, or even if it can work at all. You wonder why there is no debate in pmdev yet I've not seen you start such a debate. You wonder why we dont collaborate, but theres no direction to do so. We are expected to do and know all this without anything from you or the gods. Sorry, but those expectations are in vain. The fact that im one of the most prolific patch providers is probably due to my general stubbornness in being willing to continually bang my head against the wall without feedback or any kind of norms being established by the gods.

      In hind sight, I think part of the reason I haven't steered pmdev more is that much of the time it looked to me like I'd have to do it with the driver's-side door open pushing it. When I see it rolling somewhere, I'm more likely to jump in and steer for a bit.

      Excuse me, but who the hell _ever_ came along to help push a car with the driver sitting inside at the wheel? And if a bunch of guys start pushing a car what gives you the right to come along and jump into the car and start steering it? If you want the right to steer the car you have to be willing to push it as well. And if you want people to help you push the car that you are steering you better be willing to push the car. Maybe your analagy was unsound. But if it isnt then I can see why pmdev has gone and will not go anywhere. Its just not how groups of people work.

      But I'm a lot more inclined to steer when I see more than one person behind the vehicle pushing.

      Well, my view is that Im willing to push and steer by myself until someone wants to help push too. Once theve pushed for a while id probably let them steer too. But I shore dont expect anybody to push just so I can steer.

      Part of the problem of getting good feedback is that even most members of pmdev don't have a good appreciation for many of the design considerations of PerlMonks. I certainly didn't when I started. Did some chicken shepard me into my current understand? No.

      Were you a god at the time? If yes then this point is moot as you could easily discover this information on your own. Pmdev cant. Also, if people arent qualified to comment them isnt it better they dont? When I post a patch and somebody on pmdev doesnt understand the design issues what should they do? Personally if I saw one of your patches and didnt understand the design issues so long as nothing looked _wrong_ I wouldn't say anything. Now if you specifically asked me to review a patch and then post questions and issues I would raise it, but if you just said any comments id probably leave it alone.

      So, I still think the ball is your hands. Ill do my shepherding and try to recruit some people to join pmdev. Ill also post some new stuff to the wikis to try to get the ball rolling. But I stand by my claim. You have various patches that you are working on and would like to eventually apply. Clear the wiki, and start this whole protocol with your patch. Show us what kind of debate and discussion should happen with your patch. Or hell somebody elses patch. It doesnt matter. But I think that if you want there to be a car to steer youll have to show us what kind of pushing you want. Show. Preferably not tell. And certainly not guess.

      Anyway, I think the place to move this to is the wiki and possibly a new pmdev node. Ill be doing some activity in these areas soon.

      Cheers


      ---
      demerphq

        First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
        -- Gandhi
[reply]
[d/l]
        leadership is by example

        Heh. I didn't create pmdev. It isn't that I really "want" pmdev to do these things. If pmdev wants my help, then that is how they'll get it.

        Maybe at some distant time I'll try to drag pmdev along, holding hands and cheerleading. More likely (but maybe not very likely) we'll find someone else to do that.

        I find it hard to make time to do maintenance work on PM. That's miles away from what it takes to build a team as you describe. I tried (lamely) to build pmdev before but that was a mistake because I had nothing near the availability required.

        Were you a god at the time? If yes then this point is moot as you could easily discover this information on your own. Pmdev cant

        Discovering technical details does not magically become "easy" by virtue of being in gods. And it certainly isn't impossible for those in pmdev. You can do anything technical that I can via the test site. So I don't see any difference, much less this huge chasm you claim.

        Also, if people arent qualified to comment them isnt it better they dont?

        Sure, if you are ignorant and want to stay ignorant, keep your mouth shut. Part of it is also the old Usenet trick: If someone posts a question that you want to know the answer to but noone is answering it, an almost sure-fire approach is for you to post an incorrect answer.

        I'd like to assist pmdev. I'm not going to lead, I'm not going to push. I've made suggestions in the past. I've reviewed other code and designs. I've posted my code. I've never seen much happen in response. If pmdev wants to work, they'll have to pull themselves up or find some leader certainly other than me. And now that we have a test site, at least one of those leaders shouldn't be in gods. And I don't see any requirement that any leader be in gods.

        All pmdev needs from gods is applying patches. I've described how they can get me to do that. I haven't seen any other such descriptions from gods. So, if you don't like my terms, why aren't you pestering any of the other dozen(?) members? If pmdev wants to do what I've described, then I'll be here. If not, then they aren't self-motivated enough to succeed with the time I have available for them.

        This is not a design on my part of how to build pmdev. It is an unfortunate situation. Do I expect pmdev to do these things without my proactive, long-term leadership by example? No. I expect pmdev to not do these things, even with limited leadership by example from me.

        So I've given up trying (as it doesn't work and it just annoys the pigs). This is not a criticism of pmdev. I don't expect it of them. I'm not disappointed in them. I just slowly came to realize what is required from my point of view and have now expressed it because you were interested without simply criticiizing.

        And since it is becoming more clear to me you are unwilling to be the leader, it looks like pmdev is still not ready to take off.

        - tye        

[reply]

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