It's when people are judged or evaluated in messages on perlmonks that you'll see people running away. Even if the participants in a forum aren't being judged, the mere presence of judgements about anyone's figure or looks sends the message "beware, we don't care about your brain, we care about your boobs/butt/bald spot".

That's my 2c, anyway.

go gnat!

e-mail neshura

I'm not female, but I don't think it strengthens that view at all. I feel very strongly that magazines like FHM and web sites like mine do not demean women in any way whatsoever, and that is certainly not my intention.

I imagine that the post is appropriate, otherwise presumably Vroom wouldn't have allowed it?

Well, it is never about what we feel should be offensive, but what they feel is offensive. Part of living or taking part of a society is being conscious of your fellow members feelings.

Now, I am not attacking you. I'm looking out for our female members. The kind neshura warned us, although playfully, that we should check our egos at the door if we want more females in this profession, and I think she has a point. I know how upset I would be if a female I cared for was offended. Should I be less concerned if someone with whom I am not particularly connected is also offended?

I appreciate your view that this is appropriate. You have every right to feel that way, but they also have every right to feel how they may fee.

Vroom doesn't allow every post, he let's us determine what is appropriate in our community.

If the community feels this is appropriate, so be it. I am not judging, just questioning. Sometimes, we have to think like others to get the full picture.

Thanks for your response and your well-thought arguments. I know that you aren't trying to offend women. I offend sometimes without trying, and I'm sure others do as well.

Have a good one.

J. J. Horner
Linux, Perl, Apache, Stronghold, Unix
jhorner@knoxlug.org http://www.knoxlug.org/

Dear me, this post really is causing a bit of stir and unfortunately it's getting voted down by everyone. Anyway, for those of you that don't know, FHM has another poll where women vote for who they think is the sexiest woman! If anyone is offended by the post and/or by the site, I am sorry and I do regret that.

that we should check our egos at the door if we want more females in this profession
As far as I am concerned, women are more than welcome in computing. I don't really think it has anything to do with our egos though. I'm currently doing my degree and only around 10% of the students are female. Why? I don't know. Perhaps women just don't like computing as much as men? Who knows. The fact is though that women are as free as the next person to enter into the computing industry, especially with today's laws for sexual equality.

Vroom doesn't allow every post, he let's us determine what is appropriate in our community.
What exactly do you mean? My understanding of the Perl Monks system is that any postings to the main sections are reviewed by Vroom or some of the staff before they are allowed up. They can be viewed on the newest nodes before that. If Vroom et al think that the post is inappropriate, it never gets shown. Had that been the case here, I'd gladly have accepted Vroom's decision.

Well, it is never about what we feel should be offensive, but what they feel is
offensive. Part of living or taking part of a society is being conscious of your fellow
members feelings.

Now, I am not attacking you. I'm looking out for our female members. The kind
neshura warned us, although playfully, that we should check our egos at the door if
we want more females in this profession, and I think she has a point. I know how
upset I would be if a female I cared for was offended. Should I be less concerned if
someone with whom I am not particularly connected is also offended?

Thanks for saying this, J.J. I thank you because I agree and also because I think it takes a bit of extra moxie to stand up and say something like this. Joking around usually looks so innocent to the participants, so that it can be natural to feel like one is being something of a PITA or is throwing cold water on the party if one offers reminders about the need for sensitivity.

I am going to offer the example of the recent YAPC and some of the verbiage heard there as an example of why I perceive this community has a ways to go. I stood next to a woman of East Indian decent and listened as Nathan Torkington went on a wild supposedly humorous diatribe (which was pre-announced to be all in good fun) and couldn't help but feel that there was an enormous insensitivity there (I don't mean to single Nathan out or speak ill of anyone behind their back, this was just an example).

I believe that I perceived that Indian woman's increasing discomfort level as the torrent of blue language and off-color jokes (including a reference the "the ambulatory speed of Calcutta Cripples") increased, just as I believe she tried to suppress it. I think women work way harder than we sometimes realize to create a way for themselves to be a part of the Perl hacking community -- to feel they belong. It is possible when one is determined to do something like that, to have one's sensibilities repeatedly assulted without making any fuss about it, but underneath a cumulative sort of negative feeling is accruing. Obviously none of that should play a role at all -- it should soley be about how competent a programmer you are and how much you endeavor to contribute.

Anyway, J.J., this thread, although perhaps long-dead, offered me an opportunity to express these concerns and to acknowledge what I see as their relatedness to what you stated above. Thanks again.

soren andersen Intrepid

Intrepid	<IMG SRC="http://www.wonderstorm.com/cgi-bin/PiNGMe.pl?wonderstorm-com_stonebutton" WIDTH=150 HEIGHT=20 BORDER=0>
www.wonderstorm.com	img data served to some browsers as a PNG img