However I do not think it is fair to say that Perl itself could not have existed as an idea without host mind. That is, an idea does not need someone to think it, to be.

I'm reminded of the song by Bjork which talks about all the machines and inventions of the world lying under a mountain waiting for their time to come out. Just because no mortal (even a saint!) has thought of something, doesn't mean it can't exist on some level.

My final arguement is along the lines of an idea that was thought of by mortals, and later lost or forgotten. A close example is Greek Fire (although we still know of the "idea" of Greek Fire, just not the ingredients, it's a close example). Just because we mortals and saints have forgotten ancient wisdom, does not keep it from existing in some other planar sort of existance.

Meta-Cheers,
Gryn

human ideas absolutely cannot exist without minds.

So, just because no one has thought of something, or even, isn't thinking of something at the moment, it doesn't exist???

While "The Larry" is a saint, I'm reasonably confident that he'd object to being called savior.   I've never met the man, but his "1st State of the Onion" address is a pretty strong indicator.

Changing the subject, it's good to see a debate thread run for 12+ days and 12+ nodes yet not deteriorate into a flame war.   Good job monks! 8^)
    cheers,
    ybiC

A saviour only in the sense of allowing enlightenment in the realm of computers and programming. The religious tones are only to be imagined :) .

A Saint because you can't classify a saviour as a god without religious tones (and consequential pillars of flame).

Kudos for the compliment. However it's been +12 days because I'm very lazy and take several days to respond. :)

Cheers,
Gryn