And even if you don't have good net access, I've seen entire CPAN disks on CD-ROM, so no net connection is required.

You also misinterpret Tom Christiansen. The point of PPT is not to reinvent Unix because he can. The point is to give Unix tools to the unwashed Windows masses, which he considers impoverished. Many of those programs use CPAN modules heavily, so it actually discredits your argument. {grin}

The problem with CGI.pm is not its size: it's that there's so many things to do to handle CGI in general. Every time I've seen something scaled down, it didn't handle something that would eventually have to be handled by adding more code, which already existed in CGI.pm. And CGI.pm is already very agressive at being a "compile as you go" module, minimizing startup cost.

OK, do you have any objections other than those to using CPAN modules? Bring them on. {grin}

-- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker

What if you don't have ANYTHING but the bare distro? No money to buy a CD. No connection (I may be in class). Answer me that. $time{&to("install",$module)}=5 if(&$i{"had"}("internet connection"));

About Tom: *WHAT?!?* Great, time to make a Linux distro...

About CGI.pm: CGI.pm is a catch-all, and many people have told about it's problems both here, on other sites, and on dead-tree print (Linux Jornal comes to mind). From what I've seen, even with CGI.pm's minimization, it still takes a long time to compile, and it looks like the best thing to advoid on speed-critical scripts.

Oh, yeah, now that you mention it: Module dependencies on modules. I'm getting confused over what GIMP::Perl wants, which needs PDL, which needs... well, it's a nice documentation problem which I wish was shifted over to program side. I'll love to have it so I can do a "perl Makefile.pl -print-needed-modules". Has that been solved? Will CPAN Modules have a INSTALL file in the archives? What about the moderate newbie (which I seem to be turning out to).

--
&$WolfSkunks({use Perl;}); do {$you};

Reading your posts, I am a little unclear as to your point of view. regarding your position on modules, is it: A. Internet access is difficult or near impossible, so by default, you're remanded to rolling your own, unless included with whatever distro you're running? B. You're a "purist", and regardless of internet connectivity, you'd prefer to do without? If you're answer is B, then why not politely tell us, "Thanks but this is how I feel", and move on. If it's A, then you've got options. Also, I'm having a hard time understanding where your sense of urgency fits in. I really can't comment on some of the points you make regarding specific modules and PPT, never having used them, but while criticizing them, remember that the folks who wrote these, did so primarily in their spare time, and provided them to the Perl community freely. Yes, there are problems, but rather than just complaining and becoming part of the problem, become a pro-active part of some solution, like submitting cohesive, accurate bug-reports to the respective maintainers of the software you're having problems with. Better yet, if you have the skills, time, etc., volunteer to help fix or modify the problematic code! Don't like GIMP::Perl docs? Write 'em! "Wishing" will accomplish nothing.

PS, I --'d your post because the beginning sounds more like, "if you were alone on a desert island, would you rather.....", than a question of real circumstance.

Actually, I find Cygwin to be an excellent unix layer for win32 use.

But who wants windows... I just bought an iBook last night and the sucker rips... 366mhz and it completely leaves my dell 500mhz in the dust.

perl Makefile.PL PREFIX="path/to/local/module/directory"
[download]

#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

use strict;
use lib "path/to/local/module/directory";
[download]

dd if="some_module" of=/dev/fd0/"some_module"
[download]

The only possibility of achieving really impressive increases in productivity is using other people's libraries. <cite>Bruce Eckel. Thinking in C++, Prentice Hall, 1995.</cite>

As for speed, does it really matter? How long will it matter?

Christian Lemburg
Brainbench MVP for Perl
http://www.brainbench.com

Which is why we have the GPL. ;)

For speed, apparently it does matter -- with large websites. Check that Training wheels again article.

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&$WolfSkunks({use Perl;}); do {$you};

Did you read the entire thread?

Specifically I am thinking of this post.

Secondly all that that thread showed, even with the original numbers, is that you can do better on performance. But it does not compare, for instance, the cost of buying more machines versus having someone discover how to delete your customer database.

Now if you want to learn more about performance, go here. Those slides have extremely good advice about how to wind up being incredibly fast.

For the record, he uses CGI.pm.

OK I understand the need/wish to do things for yourself. I've played the "dat not borned here" game myself more than once.

What confuses me is why you get so upset that people point out the modules. Just let that slide. You can't get all huffy about not having access to CPAN on this website, because, HELLO, it's a WEBSITE. And you are going to have a hard time convincing me you got perl installed on a laptop that has no floppy drive, cdrom, modem or network card.

Worse, you are going to have a real hard time convincing me that you write entire apps from scratch on your laptop in some remote mountain villa where you have no internet access.

I don't think modules off CPAN are always the answer they are often the starting point. If it is too slow, fix or replace it. If it doesn't have the capabilities, add to it, fix it or replace it.

The guy who invented the wheel deserves a lot of credit, the guys who worked to make it better deserve credit, the guy who reinvents it poorer, less featured, and more specific can't reasonably complain when people go "ho hum, you buy those at Walmart, why carve them yourself, sloppily?"

And don't get me wrong here, your code was fine and dandy and looked it through for new ideas and to see how things worked. It's just that merlyn was more than correct in pointing out that a complete, generalized version of the same trick existed in a place where we all look for code.

Code reuse is one of the Holy Grails of computing and Perl's CPAN is the singular shining example I know of that shows the promise of that quest. I can't imagine bothering to rewrite CGI when it already exists. And I doubt greatly that performance is that much of an issue that it needs a faster core. If I were to do anything, I'd condsider ripping CGI into sub modules as Mr. Stein keeps threatening to do. You'd do us all a great service by taking CGI and fixing it, you'd do us little good and yourself only moderate good by stubbornly "fixing" it yourself, blind to the YEARS of experience that have gone into making it work well for the whol community.

#erk

Whups, that turned into a rant. Sorry.

--
$you = new YOU;
honk() if $you->love(perl)

True, true, but in a place where there is no access (such as next door to a very full computer lab w/no way to transfer files from one computer to another) you're kinda stuck.

Splitting CGI.pm would be worth it, of course. However, from what I've seen, rewriting it would be better. That, and I'm not too sure about object orientation and perl in most cases.

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&$WolfSkunks({use Perl;}); do {$you};

I've quit calling Perl object oriented. I call it "Object Capable" when describing it. It's not object oriented at all, it's object occasionally wanders in the direction. =P

One of the benefits to working in Perl is not being tied down by "method"ology when you don't want it. Writing a module only to discover that half of the methods are just returning and setting state values tends to disgust me. That is another benefit of the Perl community, they rarely vilifiy procedural coding. Most of the perl coders seem to have grown up from shell scripting. Even the "classically trained" coders shed their inhibitions and indulge.

--
$you = new YOU;
honk() if $you->love(perl)

Just out of pure curiosity... Why do you want to use CGI.pm on a computer with no web access? ;--0

Advice is an example of the sharing in the Perl community, CPAN is yet another; It is a synergy.

Modules are a repository of common-sense, access to CPAN is arguably beneficial to developers: strive* for access.

I feel there is vindicativeness in your post; as though someone had offended your code and intellect.

--
Brother Frankus.

* configue, advocate, persuade, hack

Thank you Brother Frankus. Laziness is foremost nessisary in this case.

--
&$WolfSkunks({use Perl;}); do {$you};

Que?

--

Brother Frankus.

Another point is speed. . . . A monk can infer that CGI.pm's bloated, slowing down hit requests. Cutting down the amount of fat, running lean, really works.

Really - with the performance of modern hardware, coupled with (lets say you are writing CGI applications) the inherent performance of Apache with mod_perl (you do use mod_perl, don't you?) performance is really not an issue. Of course, if you are trying to run a serious web site on a clapped out 486, what do you expect?

You want to improve CGI.pm's performance by spending a lot of time rewriting a "lean and mean" replacement? Save the money that you would burn in programmer time, and upgrade the hardware.

I could go though several thousand ways of pointing out that I don't have any money to throw at hardware anymore, nor point out that...

Grumble. Time to rewire CGI.pm. I'd rather do that than take out a loan for more hardware. Besides, I don't have a site anyway.

And that, of course, is my opinion.

--
&$WolfSkunks({use Perl;}); do {$you};