Perl Monks && internationalization

As seen in a recent controversial node [PT_BR] Escrever em Português no Perlmonks, an important question was raised. The support for i18n (internationalization) in the Perl Monks site.

The support for i18n inside the web application is important to allow people only reading posts in languages each monk can read, and giving the opportunity to post multilingual nodes ~~(like, one textarea for each language)~~ Using special tags to say which part of the node is in which language.

In an attempt to summarize the suggestions in that node and start a more productive discussion (considering i18n would be good for the perl monks site), I'd like to state some goals we could achieve to make this community more inclusive.

Update: Changing some things following suggestions

Translation of the perl monks site engine (which would be as simple as bring low benefits).
~~Including the configuration of which language a monk can read (and stablish priorities), and which language a monk can write.~~ Obtain the preferred languages from the monk's user agent and consider his priorities.
Allowing multi-lingual posts, allowing a monk to submit a node in English *and* in Portuguese, for instance, at the time of the writing. Using tags to specify which parts are in which language.
Showing only the parts of a node the monk can read, using the language with the highest priority to choose the translation, like the readmore tag, the parts in languages ~~other than the highest priority one~~ that the monk can't read would be hidden by default.
When a node (that a monk is able to read) doesn't have a translation for a language that the monk can write, give the opportunity for him to translate that (like the "Offer your reply", something like "Offer your translation")
~~Give some type of bonus to a monk which translates a lot of nodes (to help more nodes to be translated) and for monks who writes in several languages at once.~~

I think this could create a more inclusive environment without creating noise with nodes that people just can't understand.

As I don't know the perlmonks source code, I don't know how hard it is to do this changes, and I'd like to know at first stage to hear what the other monks have to say about this idea.

daniel

Comment on Perl Monks && internationalization

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Re: Perl Monks && internationalization by mrborisguy (Hermit) on Jun 10, 2005 at 18:51 UTC
`<i18n lang="EN_US">` I refuse to comment on the whether it is a good or bad idea to "multi-lingualize" PerlMonks. (I'm sure that's not a real word) Here are my thoughts to simplify a change if it were to take place. Instead of an entire infrastructure change on that part of PerlMonks, mere tags would do the trick I think. `</i18n>` `<i18n lang="SP">` Hola! Como te llamas! Mucho gusto! Y tu? Estoy bien porque estoy in la clase de espanol! `</i18n>` `<i18n lang="EN_US">` Okay, so obviously the tags would be changed, but the idea is there. And obviously there'd have to be code in the PerlMonks system that would be able to handle the tags (otherwise they're pretty useless, like in this post). Slowly, options could evolve from this, but not everything would have to happen right away. I'd say they'd kinda be like readmore tags. Problem is, some people (and most anonymous monks) don't use tags anyway, so that could be the problem, but putting a default <i18n> tag in the text area's might help. Even not allowing anything outside of <i18n> tags might help, too. These are just my thoughts, as frivolous and worthless as they may be. By the way, yeah, I don't know Spanish very well, obviously. I think what I wrote was something we had to memorize for my first year Spanish class in high school. -Bryan `</i18n>`	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^2: Perl Monks && internationalization by ruoso (Curate) on Jun 10, 2005 at 22:34 UTC
You won, this was a better idea... but... and what about the node title?	[reply]
Re: Perl Monks && internationalization by Ben Win Lue (Friar) on Jun 11, 2005 at 10:29 UTC
Hi ruoso, thanks for retracking the original post. As I read the thread of the original post, I thougt it would be a good idea to post bi-lingual(just as I do here). My english is not that bad, but often it takes a lot of effort to makes my ideas clear in english and sometimes I seem to be awfully misunderstood. For others the use of english is just a too high threshold to use the benefits of PerlMonks. When I log in in the morning I see lots of english, german, indian, dutch and scandinavian users. Where are the french or the italians? There should be just as many Perl-Users in France or in Italy as in the UK. I thought the whole thing would be just a question of good-will and there would be no need for any technical support. But after reading mrborisguys post, I think this is the best idea, so far. This would enable a kind of filter, so I could suppress any japanese or arabian messages where I don't even have the font. Hi ruoso, gute Idee, den portugiesischen Thread noch einmal aufzunehmen. Als ich ersten Thread las, fand ich die Idee gut, das man auch mehrsprachig (und das ist ein deutsches Wort) posten können sollte. Mein Englisch halte ich jetzt mal für gar nicht so schlecht, aber trotzdem dauert es einige Zeit, bis ich mir so etwas wie oben aus den Fingern gesaugt habe. Trotzdem werde ich hier oft für blöd gehalten, weil ich nicht den Kern meiner Gedanken 'rüberbringen konnte. Andere nutzen deshalb vielleicht PerlMonks gar nicht. Man denke nur an die Kollegen (oder Kuh-Legen?) aus dem Osten, die ja selten eine Chance hatten, ordentlich Englisch zu lernen. Wenn ich mich morgens einlogge, sehe ich viele englische, indische, deutsche, niederländische und skandinavische User. Wo sind denn eigentlich die Franzosen und die Italiener? Wenn man die Bevölkerungszahl zu Grunde legt, sollte es dort genau so viele Perl-Anhänger wie in GB geben! Ich dachte eigentlich, das ganze bräuchte nur ein bischen guten Willen und Toleranz und eine technische Unterstützung wäre nicht weiter notwendig. Mrborisguys Vorschlag gefällt mir aber. So könnte man dann die Texte in japanisch oder arabisch ausblenden und hätte nicht den ganzen Bildschirm voller Fragezeichen.	[reply]
Re^2: Perl Monks && internationalization by belg4mit (Prior) on Jun 12, 2005 at 10:29 UTC
Naive simple answer: the French are notoriously xenophobic Slightly more truthful: you haven't looked close enough, there are several French and Italian members. Even more so: In my experience there are not as many French perl users. Paris.PM has a handful (read 8-10) regular members whereas Boston.PM has a good 30+ I dunno, maybe they all use Eiffel. PS> AFAIK there are only a handful of regular biritsh folk around the monastery as well. `-- I'm not belgian but I play one on TV. On dit que je parle comme un belge aussi.`	[reply]
Re^2: Perl Monks && internationalization by ruoso (Curate) on Jun 11, 2005 at 12:08 UTC
`<i18n lang="en_US">` Yeah, there's an even more interesting side effect of having the translation. I will have much material to learn other languages, and try to understand better the posts from people who speaks english as a second language. For instance, I didn't understand the german part of your post, but I realized it was a little bit different from the english part. Considering this, I'll change the original post to not hide the other languages the monk can read, but hiding only that (s)he absolutely can't read. `</i18n> <i18n lang="pt_BR">` [download] Ah sim, existe um efeito colateral ainda mais interessante de ter a tradução, eu vou ter muito mais material para aprender outros idiomas, e para entender melhor os posts de pessoas que têm o inglês como segundo idioma. Por exemplo, eu não pude entender a parte em alemão do seu post, mas eu pude perceber que existem algumas pequenas diferenças em relação à parte em inglês. Considerando isso, vou modificar o post para não esconder os outros idiomas que o monge consegue ler, mas esconder apenas aqueles que ele(a) absolutamente não consegue ler. `</i18n>` daniel	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^2: Perl Monks && internationalization by salva (Canon) on Jun 12, 2005 at 11:17 UTC
well, there is a simple answer for that: the proportion of people able to communicate in English effectively in countries whose language derives from latin (France, Italy, Spain, most (all?) countries from South America) is very low.	[reply]
Re: Perl Monks && internationalization by salva (Canon) on Jun 12, 2005 at 11:37 UTC
I would advocate for a more simple aproach, more based on the monks good manners than on technical features: Articles opening new discussions are tagged with the language used on them, so monks only see discussions on their selected languages. Responses to the articles should be written in the same language as the original article, in English or in a not so different language (for instance, somebody writing in Portuguese will welcome a response in Spanish or Italian).	[reply]
Re: Perl Monks && internationalization by tbone1 (Monsignor) on Jun 14, 2005 at 15:06 UTC
Wall, this hyere ain't such a bad idear, pervahded all y'all don't fergit t' give us'ns a redneck version uh this hyere web saht. Ah gotta watch me th' quals fer th' Busch, so y'all git t' work awn it. Git er done! (You know, I am so ashamed I could type that without edits.) -- tbone1, YAPS (Yet Another Perl Schlub) And remember, if he succeeds, so what. - Chick McGee	[reply]