Aldebaran has asked for the wisdom of the Perl Monks concerning the following question:

I am thrilled that my time as a hermit is coming to an end and look forward to my time as a chaplain. I seem to show up today with related issues. At Al-anon recovery meetings we read how we are non-sectarian, and then we close with the Lord's Prayer. I'm told it's a tradition. So, without trying too hard, I've got it on the business meeting that we need to either change our preamble:

Al-Anon is not allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization, or institution; does not engage  in  any  controversy;  neither  endorses  nor  opposes  any  cause.

, or, forego using a uniquely Xtian prayer.

I'm actually not trying to scrap the whole prayer, as it is possible to make some substitutions and remain in the cadence with others. For example, when reciting this, I usually substitute "ego," for "evil," as I do not believe in The Devil. Many of us are not deists and use silence instead of "our Father."

Anyways, here's what I have so far, where I'm trying on the new phrases stochastically:

$ ./1.vater_unser.pl path1 is /home/bob/Documents/meditations input is {$Our_Father}, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. {$Thy_kingdom_come}, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our trespasses, As we also have forgiven our trespasses; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from {$evil}. For thine is the {$kingdom} and the power and the glory, for ever. Ame +n. out_file is /home/bob/Documents/meditations/my_data/26-04-2019-19-01-5 +5/26-04-2019-19-01-55.1.txt out_file is /home/bob/Documents/meditations/my_data/26-04-2019-19-01-5 +5/26-04-2019-19-01-55.2.txt out_file is /home/bob/Documents/meditations/my_data/26-04-2019-19-01-5 +5/26-04-2019-19-01-55.3.txt OUTFILES******************* Group Of Drunks, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Ta ti ti ta, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our trespasses, As we also have forgiven our trespasses; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from being too serious. For thine is the realm and the power and the glory, for ever. Amen. ------------- our mother, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Ta ti ti ta, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our trespasses, As we also have forgiven our trespasses; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from your followers. For thine is the oligarchy and the power and the glory, for ever. Amen +. ------------- Group Of Drunks, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Armageddon can wait, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our trespasses, As we also have forgiven our trespasses; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from ego. For thine is the oligarchy and the power and the glory, for ever. Amen +. ------------- $

Source:

#!/usr/bin/perl -w use 5.011; use Path::Tiny; use utf8; use open OUT => ':utf8'; use Data::Dump; use Text::Template; use POSIX qw(strftime); binmode STDOUT, 'utf8'; my $input = <<'(END INPUT)'; {$Our_Father}, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. {$Thy_kingdom_come}, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our trespasses, As we also have forgiven our trespasses; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from {$evil}. For thine is the {$kingdom} and the power and the glory, for ever. Ame +n. (END INPUT) my $path1 = Path::Tiny->cwd; say "path1 is $path1"; say "input is $input"; ## populate hash my $data = [ [ 'Our_Father', '(silence)', 'our mother', 'universal life force', 'Group Of Drunks' ], [ 'Thy_kingdom_come', 'Armageddon can wait', 'Ta ti ti ta', 'Let sci +ence be' ], [ 'evil', 'ego', 'your followers', 'being too serious' ], [ 'kingdom', 'oligarchy', 'realm', 'big blue boat' ] ]; #dd $data; ## main loop # set trials my $trials = 3; my $dummy = 1; my $first_second = strftime( "%d-%m-%Y-%H-%M-%S", localtime ); while ( $trials > 0 ) { # create an output file my $out_file = $path1->child( 'my_data', "$first_second", "$first_second\.$dummy. +txt" ) ->touchpath; say "out_file is $out_file"; my %vars = map { $_->[0], $_->[ rand( $#{$_} ) + 1 ] } @{$data}; my $rvars = \%vars; my $template = Text::Template->new( TYPE => 'STRING', SOURCE => $inp +ut ) or die "Couldn't construct template: $!"; my $result = $template->fill_in( HASH => $rvars ); $out_file->append_utf8($result); $trials -= 1; $dummy += 1; } # end while condition print "OUTFILES*******************\n"; foreach my $filename ( glob("./my_data/$first_second/*") ) { open my $fh, '<', $filename or die "can't print $filename! $!"; while ( my $line = <$fh> ) { print "$line"; } say "-------------"; close $fh; } __END__

The line that is rubbing me wrong right now is "thy kingdom come." I look at this as essentially saying "let's blow up the world," and I'll not say amen to that while Xtian extremists on the rise seem to think it's a great idea. It might be the fault line between the extremists and the mainstream.

What I'm fishing for are substitutes that don't break the cadence of the prayer. 'Armageddon can wait' is what I want to say, but it makes for a poor substitute in terms of timing. 'Ta ti ti ta' captures the meter but means nothing.

My questions are 3-fold: what makes a good substitute for "thy kingdom come" given that I don't really want to stir up any more controversary than I'm encountering to try to change it at all?

What substitutions would you make? Could we set our sights higher than daily bread, for example? (Not that I don't like toast and sandwiches.) Is it so indelibly impressed by Xtianity that there must not be substitutions?

Thanks for your comments,

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
by soonix (Chancellor) on Apr 27, 2019 at 17:59 UTC

    Firstly, "non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian". "Sects" and "denominations", as quoted from that preamble, mean subdivisions of christianism, and probably the extremists you mention are such subdivision (perhaps not formally, but in essence).

    Of course, atheists and agnostics wouldn't need a prayer at all (or at most the agnostic "dear god, if you exist, save my soul, if I have one"). Update: However, I think Al-anon work (or other "staying healthy/sane/clean" efforts) needs a lot of mental strength, and if you believe in a superior being, prayer might help with that (Efficacy of prayer can't be measured scientifically, but they try anyway)

    That said, there certainly are different views of "thy kingdom". I think, even the baha'i view as presented in WP is compatible with the "general" christian view.

    And generally, all these words are substitutes themselves. "On earth" includes celestial bodies (since "heaven" is distinct from "sky"), and so "daily bread" is just a stylistic variant of "daily meal".

      "heaven" is distinct from "sky"

      In English, yes (but see below). Not so in German:

      For both terms, the same word "Himmel" is used. Some words are derived from "Himmel", relating either to heaven or to sky. "himmelblau" means "blue as the sky", with absolutely no religious context. "himmlisch" can be roughly translated as "like in heaven", originally used in religious contexts, but often also just as "very good, could not be better", with no intentional religious context. "himmlischer Vater", like "Vater im Himmel" (father in heaven), is a formal christian term to address the christian god, used almost exclusively in that context.

      What does that do to christian children (and children growing up in a christian environment)? Well, for many children, there is (initially) no difference between "Himmel" meaning heaven and "Himmel" meaning sky. This is amplified by using the euphemism "er/sie ist jetzt im Himmel" (he/she is now in heaven) for dead people, and by suggesting that they have become angels. So, many children more or less believe that heaven is somewhere in the sky. Rammstein has composed a song called Engel that picks up this idea and dissects it.

      Where does it come from? My guess is Martin Luther's translation of the Bible, as that happened for many other terms as well. Luther's translation had a massive influence on the German language and culture.


      A note on the term "heaven": Wikipedia mentions that "heaven" can also mean "sky". Merriam-Webster adds that especially the plural form "heavens" can also mean "sky".

      Alexander

      --
      Today I will gladly share my knowledge and experience, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so". ;-)
        Not so in German
        native speaker, can confirm :-)

        Actually I used the wrong example for what I wanted to say, the point being that the words are used for "more" than the initial meaning.

        I don't know wether the original language of the Lord's Prayer had different words for astronomic/meteorologic vs. theologic heavens. Probably even back then they were used to adapt words, just as we do nowadays with things like hashes. So I don't think the problem stems from Luther's translation. I wouldn't be surprised if other languages suffer from the same problem and use the same solution.
        Heaven used to mean sky

        From https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Heaven

        • (obsolete) The sky, particularly its distant aspect as the abode of the sun,moon, and stars

        > Where does it come from? My guess is Martin Luther's translation of the Bible

        I'm sure it's far older, missionary men always used elements of local languages and traditions.

        Hellenistic Jews like Paul of Tarsus were decisive in spreading Christianity among pagans, and the Greek gods lived high above on the Olympus.

        All religions are just copies of copies.

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

      Firstly, "non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian".
      Yes. This was the main reason I checked out this question as (despite having been something of a bible-thumper in my misguided youth) I am not aware of any sectarian variance in The Lord's Prayer (as it is generally known in the US). Whether Catholic, Protestant, or any number of Protestant variations, I've never encountered a version that substantially differed from any other. Some individuals and denominations prefer King James English while others prefer a more modern translation, but that's about it from what I've seen.
        "non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian".

        In the movie, The Blues Brothers, Jake and Elwood Blues are on a mission from {$God}. They pull into a joint and ask, "what kind of music do you play here?" The gal behind the bar answers: "both kinds, country and western."

        Antecedent to the question of "what sectarian is" is, "what is the whole?" If you suppose that the whole is Xtianity, then you would proceed along the lines that many Xtians will use: "everyone rests on sunday," "bla bla true meaning of Xmas", "good people don't smoke pot." They don't claim that their fundamental beliefs are logical. One thing that is something I'm trying to build a bridge of understanding over is how they seem to have a creedo of "It's not ______ when applied to Xtians."

        "non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian".

        But let's try logic. For those of you who have seen me show up with problems in logic that baffle me, you will know that I present here with what I don't understand.

        Is not the contrapositive Xtian implies sectarian? If a whole is to address a pie at least as large as the abrahamic religions, then I think soonix would agree with me that we have at least 3 abrahamic religions in judaism, islam, and xtianism. Would you agree with me that if people on this list were invited to pray together, then the "sectarian" differences are the ones among factions? In this setting, the lord's prayer would most definitely be "sectarian." Meanwhile, a prayer which addressed a monotheistic Dude would be "non-sectarian."

Re: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
by LanX (Saint) on Apr 27, 2019 at 11:40 UTC
    Are most anonymous alcoholics in Portland German American Christians or why "Vater Unser" ? ;)

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
    Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

      "Vater Unser" ?

      I truly don't want to offend and put my response, new code and output between readmore tags:

      Thanks for your comment,

        > dein Reich komme;

        LOL, you made my day. :)

        BTW: Swedes have a "Riksdagen" and Dutch a "Rijksmuseum" ...

        > (Reinhold Niebuhr), was a german expat

        according to WP he was born in the US

        But true, collaborations between confessions are very normal here, the Lutheran church next door is used by Ethiopian Christians for Easter mass.

        > German has a lot of theological influence on Americans with most of us being too ignorant to know it.

        BTW: not only among Christians, see Reform_Judaism

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

Re: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
by soonix (Chancellor) on Apr 28, 2019 at 12:14 UTC
    Some more thoughts:
    … or, forego using a uniquely Xtian prayer.
    This is two issues in one:
    • christian: are there "universal" prayers? Jews, Christians, and Muslims seem to pray to the same god, but what about the other religions?
    • prayer: As i already said, Atheists and Agnostics wouldn't need a prayer. I have only hearsay about Al-Anon, but they seem to stem from a monotheistic, or at least deistic tradition, because four of the "Twelve Steps" explicitly mention "God".
    In a SciAm article published on (conveniently) Christmas 2013, they write:
    The authors tested several possible explanations, but found statistical support for only one: people interpret prayer as a social interaction with God, and social interactions are what give us the cognitive resources necessary to avoid temptation.
    So it isn't important what you ask for in your prayer, because it is the very act of praying which helps you, even if you know1 you are talking to an imaginary friend.
    What substitutions would you make?
    As you probably can take from my previous post, I am more or less content with the current text :-)
    what makes a good substitute
    If I want to reword a text (or even just better understand it), I often translate it, sometimes forth and back. Which languages, doesn't matter much. Although I know neither Toki Pona nor Láadan, (nor does Google Translate :-)), but from what I know about them, they'd be my languages of choice for this project. This particular text has already been translated numerous times, so it seems better to check with dictionaries, anyway.

    1(Update): originally, I wanted to write "are certain" instead of "know", but I wanted to make clear that this is meant to cover even "full Level" certainty.

Re: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
by karlgoethebier (Abbot) on Apr 27, 2019 at 17:26 UTC

    الله أكبر

    «The Crux of the Biscuit is the Apostrophe»

    perl -MCrypt::CBC -E 'say Crypt::CBC->new(-key=>'kgb',-cipher=>"Blowfish")->decrypt_hex($ENV{KARL});'Help

        From my limited Arabic I'd say you wrote something like "Kingdom God" and KGB something like "God big" probably "Alahu Akbar"

        Kann sein. Ich meinte "Gott ist groß." Gruß Karl

        «The Crux of the Biscuit is the Apostrophe»

        perl -MCrypt::CBC -E 'say Crypt::CBC->new(-key=>'kgb',-cipher=>"Blowfish")->decrypt_hex($ENV{KARL});'Help