in reply to Re: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
in thread making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template

"heaven" is distinct from "sky"

In English, yes (but see below). Not so in German:

For both terms, the same word "Himmel" is used. Some words are derived from "Himmel", relating either to heaven or to sky. "himmelblau" means "blue as the sky", with absolutely no religious context. "himmlisch" can be roughly translated as "like in heaven", originally used in religious contexts, but often also just as "very good, could not be better", with no intentional religious context. "himmlischer Vater", like "Vater im Himmel" (father in heaven), is a formal christian term to address the christian god, used almost exclusively in that context.

What does that do to christian children (and children growing up in a christian environment)? Well, for many children, there is (initially) no difference between "Himmel" meaning heaven and "Himmel" meaning sky. This is amplified by using the euphemism "er/sie ist jetzt im Himmel" (he/she is now in heaven) for dead people, and by suggesting that they have become angels. So, many children more or less believe that heaven is somewhere in the sky. Rammstein has composed a song called Engel that picks up this idea and dissects it.

Where does it come from? My guess is Martin Luther's translation of the Bible, as that happened for many other terms as well. Luther's translation had a massive influence on the German language and culture.


A note on the term "heaven": Wikipedia mentions that "heaven" can also mean "sky". Merriam-Webster adds that especially the plural form "heavens" can also mean "sky".

Alexander

--
Today I will gladly share my knowledge and experience, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so". ;-)
  • Comment on Re^2: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template

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Re^3: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
by soonix (Chancellor) on Apr 28, 2019 at 09:36 UTC
    Not so in German
    native speaker, can confirm :-)

    Actually I used the wrong example for what I wanted to say, the point being that the words are used for "more" than the initial meaning.

    I don't know wether the original language of the Lord's Prayer had different words for astronomic/meteorologic vs. theologic heavens. Probably even back then they were used to adapt words, just as we do nowadays with things like hashes. So I don't think the problem stems from Luther's translation. I wouldn't be surprised if other languages suffer from the same problem and use the same solution.
Re^3: making the Vater Unser non-sectarian using Text::Template
by LanX (Saint) on Apr 28, 2019 at 10:33 UTC
    Heaven used to mean sky

    From https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Heaven

    • (obsolete) The sky, particularly its distant aspect as the abode of the sun,moon, and stars

    > Where does it come from? My guess is Martin Luther's translation of the Bible

    I'm sure it's far older, missionary men always used elements of local languages and traditions.

    Hellenistic Jews like Paul of Tarsus were decisive in spreading Christianity among pagans, and the Greek gods lived high above on the Olympus.

    All religions are just copies of copies.

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
    Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

      All religions are just copies of copies
      I just wish one of the fun ones had caught on. I could totally see myself visiting the temple of Aphrodite. A church, not so much. In fact, churches make my skin itchy.


      holli

      You can lead your users to water, but alas, you cannot drown them.
        Go to cinema, most of these marvel flicks are just remakes of pagan mythology.

        No, I can't recommend a theater with temple whore (shipping) yet.

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice