"heaven" is distinct from "sky"

In English, yes (but see below). Not so in German:

For both terms, the same word "Himmel" is used. Some words are derived from "Himmel", relating either to heaven or to sky. "himmelblau" means "blue as the sky", with absolutely no religious context. "himmlisch" can be roughly translated as "like in heaven", originally used in religious contexts, but often also just as "very good, could not be better", with no intentional religious context. "himmlischer Vater", like "Vater im Himmel" (father in heaven), is a formal christian term to address the christian god, used almost exclusively in that context.

What does that do to christian children (and children growing up in a christian environment)? Well, for many children, there is (initially) no difference between "Himmel" meaning heaven and "Himmel" meaning sky. This is amplified by using the euphemism "er/sie ist jetzt im Himmel" (he/she is now in heaven) for dead people, and by suggesting that they have become angels. So, many children more or less believe that heaven is somewhere in the sky. Rammstein has composed a song called Engel that picks up this idea and dissects it.

Where does it come from? My guess is Martin Luther's translation of the Bible, as that happened for many other terms as well. Luther's translation had a massive influence on the German language and culture.

A note on the term "heaven": Wikipedia mentions that "heaven" can also mean "sky". Merriam-Webster adds that especially the plural form "heavens" can also mean "sky".

Alexander

Not so in German

native speaker, can confirm :-)

Actually I used the wrong example for what I wanted to say, the point being that the words are used for "more" than the initial meaning.

I don't know wether the original language of the Lord's Prayer had different words for astronomic/meteorologic vs. theologic heavens. Probably even back then they were used to adapt words, just as we do nowadays with things like hashes. So I don't think the problem stems from Luther's translation. I wouldn't be surprised if other languages suffer from the same problem and use the same solution.

Heaven used to mean sky

From https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Heaven

• (obsolete) The sky, particularly its distant aspect as the abode of the sun,moon, and stars

> Where does it come from? My guess is Martin Luther's translation of the Bible

I'm sure it's far older, missionary men always used elements of local languages and traditions.

Hellenistic Jews like Paul of Tarsus were decisive in spreading Christianity among pagans, and the Greek gods lived high above on the Olympus.

All religions are just copies of copies.

Cheers Rolf
_{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice}

All religions are just copies of copies

I just wish one of the fun ones had caught on. I could totally see myself visiting the temple of Aphrodite. A church, not so much. In fact, churches make my skin itchy.


holli

You can lead your users to water, but alas, you cannot drown them.

Firstly, "non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian".

"non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian".

In the movie, The Blues Brothers, Jake and Elwood Blues are on a mission from {$God}. They pull into a joint and ask, "what kind of music do you play here?" The gal behind the bar answers: "both kinds, country and western."

Antecedent to the question of "what sectarian is" is, "what is the whole?" If you suppose that the whole is Xtianity, then you would proceed along the lines that many Xtians will use: "everyone rests on sunday," "bla bla true meaning of Xmas", "good people don't smoke pot." They don't claim that their fundamental beliefs are logical. One thing that is something I'm trying to build a bridge of understanding over is how they seem to have a creedo of "It's not ______ when applied to Xtians."

"non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian".

But let's try logic. For those of you who have seen me show up with problems in logic that baffle me, you will know that I present here with what I don't understand.

Is not the contrapositive Xtian implies sectarian? If a whole is to address a pie at least as large as the abrahamic religions, then I think soonix would agree with me that we have at least 3 abrahamic religions in judaism, islam, and xtianism. Would you agree with me that if people on this list were invited to pray together, then the "sectarian" differences are the ones among factions? In this setting, the lord's prayer would most definitely be "sectarian." Meanwhile, a prayer which addressed a monotheistic Dude would be "non-sectarian."

There's triple negation in "non-sectarian" doesn't mean "non-christian". So even for us Perlers, who are apt in formal logic, it is difficult to talk about contrapositives and/or opposities :-)

Perhaps for a part of your point, an answer is in my second reply (first half).