My reasoning is chiefly freedom based. Economics is a defining factor in freedom so I see no flaw. Without total freedom of money, there is no individual freedom. Economics was the copilot in all the death described in this thread.

Still, while the EU is also an attempt to play in the same heavy weight league like the US or China, it is not a unit where you need force for secession.

As demonstrated, EU member states are free to leave and all regional independence movements I've seen so far (Scotland, Catalonia, Lega Nort,...) expressively want to stay inside the EU.

Finally I'm not aware of any EU atrocities.

There is a tendency in the British press to compare the EU with the 3rd Reich or the USSR, and so I can't leave this uncommented.

Cheers Rolf
_{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
Je suis Charlie!}

Well, be fair, there was definitely state coercion and a little resulting violence in Catalonia lately.

There have been no specifically EU atrocities except as the EU has supported the US's irrational, violent nonsense. The Iraq invasion probably would not have happened without key EU member support and troop pledges. But, again, atrocities are not my primary motivation so for me, it's not a meaningful rebuttal. Freedom is my motivation. I just think it creates the greatest possibilities for a richer and more peaceful world. And to clarify, when I say I want smaller, or at the least, weaker, states I don't mean isolated ones. Freedom means open borders and trade.

Decentralization empowers individuals. I can speak at a county council meeting today and be heard. I could work my whole life and never get to address the US House and even then, I'm talking to 100 members who showed up, 3 of whom are listening, and 300+ empty chairs.

Political decentralization has a lot in common with open source software.

Decentralization focuses expertise and interest on one's immediate sphere instead of opening the possibility of exerting power over others at any distance, whether it is a protectionist trade agreement slowly making one country richer by draining the money from another or a single person pushing the launch button on a Predator's control panel. Personal responsibility is a key aspect of freedom. There is no personal responsibility in the state.

PerlMonks is going to need a rebranding if this thread lives much longer. :P

The flaw in your reasoning is that the EU is not a super state.

It very much is. The EU creates laws which its member states must enshrine into their own legislation. That's pretty much the definition of a superstate. It also has its own bank, currency, court, police force, etc.

It's an economic block of independent members who can veto decisions

Only a small subset of the decisions can be vetoed. The rest are binding.

It's not engaged in military operations.

... but the Commission president has other ideas. (Update 18th Dec: he has got his way)

You may argue the pros and cons of the EU as an institution (and there are both) but its status as a superstate is incontrovertable.

I couldn't find a clear definition for superstate, so I retract.

My point is most institutions are bottom up not top down.

• the EU can't start a war or stop a member starting one ( like UK vs Iraq)
• the EU can't stop windy city boys causing a global financial crisis
• Europol can't arrest a London lawyer engaged in tax evasion schemes on British territory like Guernsey
• the ECB is controlled by a council of representative of national central banks.

Contrary to this

• Washington is able to stop Texas invading Mexico,
• the FBI can arrest criminal bankers at Wallstreet
• Dollar is not controlled by a council with representatives of a hypothetical California or Missouri central bank.

Finally the number of civil servants working for the EU is comparable to the one of the Birmingham City Council, not more.

Cheers Rolf
_{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
Je suis Charlie!}

its status as a superstate is incontrovertable

As long as there is no "european" army it seems nonsensical to talk of a superstate. And I don't think such a European army (that is, an army commanded by the hugely unpopular civil servants in Brussels) is a feasible proposition, at least in the foreseeable future.

But by all means, let's work together in Europe, in defense as elsewhere.