in reply to Re^12: Patience is a Monk Virtue
in thread Patience is a Monk Virtue

Well, be fair, there was definitely state coercion and a little resulting violence in Catalonia lately.

There have been no specifically EU atrocities except as the EU has supported the US's irrational, violent nonsense. The Iraq invasion probably would not have happened without key EU member support and troop pledges. But, again, atrocities are not my primary motivation so for me, it's not a meaningful rebuttal. Freedom is my motivation. I just think it creates the greatest possibilities for a richer and more peaceful world. And to clarify, when I say I want smaller, or at the least, weaker, states I don't mean isolated ones. Freedom means open borders and trade.

Decentralization empowers individuals. I can speak at a county council meeting today and be heard. I could work my whole life and never get to address the US House and even then, I'm talking to 100 members who showed up, 3 of whom are listening, and 300+ empty chairs.

Political decentralization has a lot in common with open source software.

Decentralization focuses expertise and interest on one's immediate sphere instead of opening the possibility of exerting power over others at any distance, whether it is a protectionist trade agreement slowly making one country richer by draining the money from another or a single person pushing the launch button on a Predator's control panel. Personal responsibility is a key aspect of freedom. There is no personal responsibility in the state.

PerlMonks is going to need a rebranding if this thread lives much longer. :P

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Re^14: Patience is a Cheese Sandwich
by LanX (Saint) on Nov 15, 2017 at 20:40 UTC
    You continue with this fundamental misunderstanding of the EU being a "state".

    > Well, be fair, there was definitely state coercion and a little resulting violence in Catalonia lately.

    The conflict in Catalonia is purely internal, and Brussels denies being used by one or the other side.

    The EU has only very limited possibilities to control or "punish" a member state.

    Actually it was the EU ( well rather the predecessor "European Community" ) which helped transforming Spain and Portugal into stable democracies.

    It's like blaming a club if one of his members is quarrelling with his wife.

    > There have been no specifically EU atrocities except as the EU has supported the US's irrational, violent nonsense

    Some member states supported the Iraq invasion (UK and Poland*), others opposed it strictly (Germany and France).

    The EU as such wasn't involved!!!

    Keep in mind that some EU members (Austria, Sweden, Finland, Ireland ) are NOT in the NATO and some neutral by constitution!

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
    Je suis Charlie!

    *) actually Poland was at that time not a EU member yet.

[reply]

      I don't think the EU is a state. It is however a binding economic force which plays a role historically reserved to states and it does many things I personally consider harmful. Along the same lines, the US Federal reserve is not a state either but it sure is a force for ill.

      I said key EU members backed the Iraq debacle so a correction using my exact words seems a bit strange. :P My arguments are about dividing political and economic control and coercion, whether state, non-state actor, church, whatever into the smallest units possible. To me this would include disbanding NATO, the UN, and the EU.

      Since my philosophy precludes the use of force to achieve any such ends, I'm just the idiot suggesting it might work better for everyone and that how safe and wealthy people are corresponds neatly to how much economic and political freedom they have and to nothing else at all. Double :P

[reply]
        > key EU members backed the Iraq debacle

        key EU members opposed the Iraq debacle.

        > plays a role historically reserved to states and it does many things I personally consider harmful.

        I agree, EU is not trading fairly with third world countries. Though most of them are ex colonies were the ruling class sends theri kids to schools in London or Paris ...

        > To me this would include disbanding NATO, the UN, and the EU.

        So you are an anarchist in the traditional meaning, OK.

        My understanding of history is that without central rule and courts you have violent local conflicts.

        Let's stop it here! :)

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
        Je suis Charlie!

[reply]

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