And worst of all I feel like asking my questions had a negative impact on my status within these groups. This despite my willingness to accept all feedback openly, and consider/use all help I recieved.

Asking "stupid" questions will not negatively impact you status if you demonstrate that you have learned from the responses you got. The bozo-bit usually gets flipped after someone has asked the same question several times and has clearly ignored the answer given them. Often times I find that this is because they didn't understand the original answer and are not humble enough to admit it. IMO, humility is required to learn effectively.

In many cases I would get responces such as "don't do that", "That is evil", "your an idiot".

This is par for the course on the internets unfortunately, it pays to have a thick skin. It is good to take these kind of comments with a grain of salt, but to not always dismiss them entirely. It is often the case that some people who are good at programming, suck at people.

In conclusion, NEVER stop asking "stupid" questions it is the best way to learn!

You asked how to see if a value has been set on in a variable, even if it's undef. Various people tried to think of ways to do that, but many suggested defined, which you had specifically ruled out.

You were wondering how to avoid the "uninitialized value used in concatenation" error, but you didn't ask about that, you asked how to check to see if a variable had a value in it. The answer to the uninitialized value question was defined...

Do you see what I mean?

(I may have you confused with someone else. If so, sorry. I swear the guy on IRC was called exodus too.)

That was me, however I was not trying to solve the "uninitialized value used in concatenation" problem. I used that as an example of something that was able to tell if it had been set before or not. And indeed, defined did the same thing, I had assumed (incorrectly) that if I had done my $a = undef, it would have thought the value was 'initialized' and not generate that error. I chock this up to the use of uninitialized instead of undefiend in the warning message.

I was trying to create a behavior that depended on if someone had tried to assing a value, even undef, to a variable. So 'my $a' and 'my $a = undef' would result in different behavior.

This is of course not possible, but I did not know that, and I was very confused. Also this was in the IRC channel, and it was very hard to define my question with enough information to prevent people from assuming I was trying to do something that could be solved with the 'defined' check.

How could I have handled this better? Was it just a communication breakdown cause I was trying to do something impossible that closely resembled something that was possible? Or did I just choose a really bad example?

Well, you had specifically ruled out the correct answer in your question. I think the XY problem still applies. But I don't think you can handle it better than you did. There were some grumpy people around and that's part of what the IRC is about. It took less than a screen to get everything sorted out and in my mind it went pretty smoothly for being on the IRCs. I really didn't think you did anything wrong, aside from confusing us initially.

-Paul

Hmm - so that error message suggests that there is a difference between uninitialized and undefined. This sure is misleading.

I had a quick scan through some of your PerlMonks nodes and in every case you seemed get good answers without the nastiness that you suggest you've seen in some of the forums you have used so I guess the answer to pretty much all your questions is: "Use PerlMonks".

Generally if you take the trouble to write a good node, provide appropriate sample code, input and output data, and take care to use sensible markup the monks are pretty kind and helpful. You seem to have done that (at least the nodes I checked) and seem to have received a good response.

I did my best not to respond with anger, or by arguing a loosing battle.

Although it is specific to the Monastery, it is good to adhere to the general advice in How (Not) To Ask A Question.

Update: Honoring jeffa's request, I have used a different link above.

Greetings. Please do not link to that page. That page is a plagiarization of this one: How (Not) To Ask A Question

jeffa

L-LL-L--L-LL-L--L-LL-L--
-R--R-RR-R--R-RR-R--R-RR
B--B--B--B--B--B--B--B--
H---H---H---H---H---H---
(the triplet paradiddle with high-hat)

OT: this is more of a PerlMonks Discussion topic.

I was unaware of an issue with node id 174051. The reason I used a link to that node was because when I "Comment On" (reply to) a node, the advice below the text box tells me to "Please read these before you post!", and the second item in the list is the node that you don't want me to link to.

I will try to keep this in mind, but what about everyone else who posts here at the Monastery? How are they expected to know that there is a plagiarism issue with this node?

boo_radley on 2002‑06‑07: "Unless I hear objections to it, I'll be adding this to the perl monks faq by 12JUN2002."

jeffa:

---

I'd say your objection has come a little late.

If you want to know something you know you shouldn't do because it is a bad idea then say so up front. Also explain why you want to do it. Don't be too narrow in the why, make sure you explain your overall goal. Explain what you have tried so far and what your reasoning is. If you are intentionally eliminating a solution - explain why up front so you don't waste anyone's time. Don't spend a lot of time arguing. There will be a lot of people throwing questions and insults at you and you may end up missing the one that understands AND is helping.

Don't read more into a question that what is asked. I have been accused more than once of intimidating someone's intelligence and as well as their knowledge of perl. This is confusing since they are the one asking for help. Answer the question honestly and without emotion because sometimes (not always) you abandon a path prematurely because you think it can't work and the person asking the question does know more than you.

More than anything, don't get sucked in. If things get heated, back off. Thank everyone for their help, tell them you are going to wander off to try some things and that you will be back once what they have said has sunk in. Then, do just that. Write up short examples with what you THINK people suggested. Reflect on the things people said and see if you can't reframe your question more in line. If you found a few promising leads, send private messages. When you do go back, start over but when you are recapping what it is you want to do, why you want to do, what you have tried, recap the ideas given to you so far and point to the pastebot to show that they didn't work. Be careful in how you say "it doesn't work". I would suggest, I am sure it is my lack of understanding but I couldn't get this to work.

Finally, be realistic. You are not going to reduce the negativity and animosity to 0. Many of us are arrogant and rude without cause. Remember you came in asking for help for free to do something we all know (including you) is a bad idea. Even a rude egotistical jerk can provide the answer. Try not to fuel the fire but also demonstrate with your tact that you are not going to be walked over either.

Good Luck!

"Despite this I cannot help but think that a more fact-filled and less confrontational responce would have been better."

Nah. Just grow some thicker skin and keep asking your questions. You cannot reasonably expect people to give you FREE ADVICE and be sensible at the same time. So take the free advice and chalk the flaming up to misunderstanding. Think about it -- they can't see you. You can't see them. If you get any advice that helps you at all, then consider it a win and move on. You have to remember that these people have already gone through the same trials and tribulations you find yourself in now. Is it not easy to see how a "parent" can get tired of saying "no" over and over again and again?

I believe the problem lies not in those with knowledge needing to be more sensitive -- but rather those without the knowledge need to further humble themselves and realize that it's not all about them -- and more importantly -- they are getting their answers FOR FREE. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

L-LL-L--L-LL-L--L-LL-L--
-R--R-RR-R--R-RR-R--R-RR
B--B--B--B--B--B--B--B--
H---H---H---H---H---H---
(the triplet paradiddle with high-hat)

I have had to ask a lot of questions in IRC channels

I think I see the problem.

Nah, you can tell they are helpful by what they say :P

And you didn't even know bears could type.